Question 1: Western Media Bias?
Is the western media even-handed in its coverage of China? And how has this impacted public perception of China in America?
Ron Unz—I think the Western media has been overwhelmingly biased against China, a bias that stretches back for decades but has steadily grown worse during the 2010s and especially the last few years.
Coverage has recently become so extremely dishonest and distorted that it reminds me of how the old Soviet media portrayed the West even as the USSR went into severe decline and eventually collapsed, and I think that unfortunate analogy is a very relevant one. Furthermore, much of our academic world has followed this same pattern of totally distorting the reality of China and its relationship with the U.S.
Some of the worst examples of these media falsehoods only came to my attention during the last decade.
For more than 35 years the American media has annually denounced the Chinese government for its supposed 1989 massacre of protesting students at Tiananmen Square, but there seems overwhelming evidence that incident never happened, and was just a Western propaganda-hoax, endlessly repeated by our media.
For example, the former Beijing bureau chief of the Washington Post personally covered those events at the time, and he later published a long article setting the record straight, but his account has always been ignored. Articles published in the New York Times by its own Beijing bureau chief said much the same thing, but these also had no impact. Numerous other sources, including secret American diplomatic cables disclosed by Wikileaks have confirmed these facts, but our biased, lazy, or ignorant journalists have never paid any attention and for decades continued to promote the myth of the Tiananmen Square Massacre. Last year I published a long article summarizing all of this evidence.
Another egregious example was the 1999 American bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, an illegal attack that killed or wounded nearly two dozen Chinese. Our government and media have always described this as a tragic accident, while denouncing and ridiculing China for claiming that the bombing was deliberate.
But once again, there is overwhelming evidence that the Chinese government was entirely correct and our own government was lying, with our dishonest media endorsing and amplifying those lies. Indeed, a NATO officer was even quoted in a leading British newspaper as bragging that the guided bomb had struck exactly the intended room in the embassy. I discussed this in another section of that same article.
- American Pravda: Gaza Protests and the Legend of the Tiananmen Square Massacre
Uncovering the False Media Narrative of Tiananmen Square
Ron Unz • The Unz Review • May 13, 2024 • 8,800 Words
A few years after America’s 2008 mortgage meltdown nearly brought down the world financial system, I published a long article contrasting China’s growing success with America’s recent record of failure. My piece emphasized that the Western media and much of the Western academic world often portrayed and contrasted the two countries in ways that were the exact opposite of the reality.
- China’s Rise, America’s Fall
Ron Unz • The American Conservative • April 17, 2012 • 7,000 Words
As a short sidebar to that long article, I compared the very different Western coverage of a pair of major public health scandals.
In China, dishonest businessmen had adulterated baby food and other products with a plastic compound called melamine, protecting themselves by paying bribes to government officials. As a result, hundreds of infants were hospitalized with kidney stone problems and six died, resulting in a huge wave of public outrage and a massive government investigation and severe crackdown. Many of those involved received long prison sentences and a couple of the guiltiest culprits were executed. Western media outlets naturally had a field day describing how widespread Chinese corruption had resulted in dangerous food products. Nearly 17 years later, I sometimes still find Americans mentioning China’s food scandal and the dangers of Chinese imports.
However, around the same time, America was hit with the Vioxx scandal, in which Merck heavily marketed a lucrative pain relief medicine to the elderly as a replacement for simple aspirin. But Vioxx sales were suddenly halted when a government study showed that the medication had apparently been responsible for tens of thousands of American deaths. Internal documents soon revealed that Merck executives had known of those dangers for years but suppressed the evidence in order to reap billions of dollars of profit from their drug. American media companies had earned hundreds of millions of dollars in Vioxx advertising, so they quickly dropped the story and almost no Americans still remember it today. Although no one was ever punished, when I later examined the underlying mortality data, I discovered that the true Vioxx death toll may have actually reached into the hundreds of thousands.
Thus, the American media devoted huge attention to a Chinese health scandal resulting in six deaths while quickly flushing down the memory-hole an American health scandal whose body-count may have been as much as fifty thousand times larger. Therefore, today probably many times more Americans are aware of the former than of the latter.
- Chinese Melamine and American Vioxx: A Comparison
Ron Unz • The American Conservative • April 17, 2012 • 1,800 Words
During the last few years, the media’s anti-China propaganda has gone into complete overdrive, portraying that country as suffering under a horrible, oppressive dictatorship.
As an example, in January 2020, top officials of the outgoing Trump and the incoming Biden Administrations both declared that China was committing “genocide” against the Muslim Uighur population of Xinjiang province, and our media has regularly repeated and amplified those outrageous accusations.
Xinjiang province is freely open to both Western and Chinese tourists, with huge numbers flocking to that colorful region, and as I pointed out in a December article, none of those many visitors have ever noticed any such horrifying events. Instead, many Westerners have who recently visited China or now live there have begun documenting their experiences in numerous YouTube videos, often very favorably comparing conditions in that country with those in America.
- American Pravda: Propaganda-Hoaxes vs. Chinese Reality
Ron Unz • The Unz Review • December 16, 2024 • 6,700 Words
A common refrain of those YouTubers has often been “The Western media has been lying about China.”
Question 2: The Han Chinese People
The Han Chinese are by far the largest ethnic group in China, comprising an estimated 92% of China’s population. In your opinion, is race or ethnicity a factor in China’s success?
Ron Unz— I do think that China’s overwhelmingly Han Chinese majority population has been an important element in the country’s national success in several different ways, but some of the key factors are not fully appreciated in the West.
First, because China’s total population is over 90% Han, the country is far more ethnically homogenous and culturally unified than nearly any of today’s Western countries. Contrary to the West’s dishonest anti-China propaganda, China’s numerous ethnic national minorities are not harshly mistreated let alone the victims of cultural or physical “genocide.” But they are still only a very minor element in Chinese society, especially because they are mainly concentrated in outlying, often thinly populated provinces.
I think a reasonable analogy might have been the overwhelmingly white America of the 1950s but without blacks. Americans of that era certainly knew that various non-white minorities existed in their country, including Eskimos in Alaska, Hispanics in New Mexico and Puerto Rico, Asians in Hawaii, and some Hispanics and Asians in California. But these were all very small groups, each amounting to only 1% or 2% of the total national population, so that most Americans never encountered them and considered their country’s population as essentially white European.
Moreover, just as the overwhelmingly white America of the 1950s was divided into white regional groups, with New England whites different from Southern whites or Midwestern whites, the Han populations of the different Chinese provinces have traditionally spoken different regional dialects that actually amounted to different languages, while always using the same written form. However, since the establishment of the PRC in 1949, younger Chinese have all learned the Mandarin dialect in the schools, an important step in strengthening national unity by ensuring that everyone could speak the same language.
Although Han Chinese think of themselves as a single people, to some extent they actually represent a fusion of different original groups who had existed prior to China’s unification, with the example of the Roman Empire providing a reasonable analogy.
Around 2000 years ago, the Han Chinese Empire and the Roman Empire were roughly contemporaneous, but although Rome fell and its territories fragmented into numerous different states, the Chinese Empire survived and generally remained united during all the centuries that followed.
However, if Rome had never fallen, it’s likely that all its different component peoples would have eventually come to regard themselves as “Romans,” though with regional differences. Thus, northern Romans might have generally been taller, with fairer skin, blond hair, and blue eyes, while the Romans of North African or the Levant would have been darker and shorter, with black hair and brown eyes. But all would have considered themselves Romans.
Similarly, northern Han tend to be taller than southern Han, and the different provinces—many of them as large as European countries—are often culturally different, traditionally spoke different dialects, and ate different foods, but they all regarded themselves as Han Chinese, though having differing regional characteristics.
But completely aside from China’s Han ethnic unity, another very important reason for China’s success has been its long and almost unbroken history as an organized, centralized state, which for thousands of years has been one of the most economically and technologically advanced parts of the world. The resulting cultural and economic pressures have greatly shaped the Chinese people over those centuries, ultimately producing many of their current characteristics.
By contrast, much of today’s Europe had never been a civilized part of the Roman Empire, and even those parts that were Roman later spent up to a thousand years living in the much more backward societies of the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages prior to the Renaissance.
The impact of this long legacy of civilized life in China was always noted by Western scholars. In my articles, I have pointed out that although most Westerners of the mid-twentieth century were very skeptical of future Chinese success, our leading public intellectuals of a century ago had held entirely different views, and would hardly have been surprised by China’s rapid economic advance in recent decades:
Although these developments might have shocked Westerners of the mid-20th Century—when China was best known for its terrible poverty and Maoist revolutionary fanaticism—they would have seemed far less unexpected to our leading thinkers of 100 years ago, many of whom prophesied that the Middle Kingdom would eventually regain its ranking among the foremost nations of the world. This was certainly the expectation of E.A. Ross, one of America’s greatest early sociologists, whose book The Changing Chinese looked past the destitution, misery, and corruption of the China of his day to a future modernized China perhaps on a technological par with America and the leading European nations. Ross’s views were widely echoed by public intellectuals such as Lothrop Stoddard, who foresaw China’s probable awakening from centuries of inward-looking slumber as a looming challenge to the worldwide hegemony long enjoyed by the various European-descended nations.
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— Noctis Draven (@DravenNoctis) January 16, 2025
The widespread devastation produced by the Japanese invasion, World War II, and the Chinese Civil War, followed by the economic calamity of Maoism, did delay the predicted rise of China by a generation or two, but except for such unforeseen events, their analysis of Chinese potential seems remarkably prescient. For example, Stoddard approvingly quotes the late Victorian predictions of Professor Charles E. Pearson:
Does any one doubt that the day is at hand when China will have cheap fuel from her coal-mines, cheap transport by railways and steamers, and will have founded technical schools to develop her industries? Whenever that day comes, she may wrest the control of the world’s markets, especially throughout Asia, from England and Germany.[5]
Western intellectual life a century ago was quite different from that of today, with contrary doctrines and taboos, and the spirit of that age certainly held sway over its leading figures. Racialism—the notion that different peoples tend to have different innate traits, as largely fashioned by their particular histories—was dominant then, so much so that the notion was almost universally held and applied, sometimes in rather crude fashion, to both European and non-European populations.
With regard to the Chinese, the widespread view was that many of their prominent characteristics had been shaped by thousands of years of history in a generally stable and organized society possessing central political administration, a situation almost unique among the peoples of the world. In effect, despite temporary periods of political fragmentation, East Asia’s own Roman Empire had never fallen, and a thousand-year interregnum of barbarism, economic collapse, and technological backwardness had been avoided.
On the less fortunate side, the enormous population growth of recent centuries had gradually caught up with and overtaken China’s exceptionally efficient agricultural system, reducing the lives of most Chinese to the brink of Malthusian starvation; and these pressures and constraints were believed to be reflected in the Chinese people. For example, Stoddard wrote:
Winnowed by ages of grim elimination in a land populated to the uttermost limits of subsistence, the Chinese race is selected as no other for survival under the fiercest conditions of economic stress. At home the average Chinese lives his whole life literally within a hand’s breadth of starvation. Accordingly, when removed to the easier environment of other lands, the Chinaman brings with him a working capacity which simply appalls his competitors.[6]
Stoddard backed these riveting phrases with a wide selection of detailed and descriptive quotations from prominent observers, both Western and Chinese. Although Ross was more cautiously empirical in his observations and less literary in his style, his analysis was quite similar, with his book on the Chinese containing over 40 pages describing the grim and gripping details of daily survival, provided under the evocative chapter-heading “The Struggle for Existence in China.”[7]
During the second half of the 20th century, ideological considerations largely eliminated from American public discourse the notion that many centuries of particular circumstances might leave an indelible imprint upon a people.
Thus, today’s Han Chinese are the heirs to the shaping pressures of thousands of years of life in an organized, stable, but very economically challenging civilization.
- American Pravda: The Racial Roots of China’s Rise
Ron Unz • The Unz Review • November 4, 2024 • 13,300 Words
Question 3: China’s Competitive Economy
In your article, you say that China is a more competitive environment than the US which seems to indicate that China is more market-oriented than America. Can you explain what you mean by this?
Ron Unz—Given the severe distortions about China frequently found in the Western media, we were very pleased to recently add a Chinese columnist named Hua Bin, a retired business executive who had established his own Substack, and published numerous informative posts regarding his own country and its sometimes troubled relationship with America. Hua had originally caught my attention when he’d left a favorable comment on our website:
…As a Chinese, I have already tuned out the dishonest western media when it comes to reporting on China (or any adversarial countries for that matter). I used to read NYT, WSJ, FT, the Economist, etc almost on daily basis, especially their reports on China, for at least 2 decades. But since 2017 or so, the bias in the reporting has become epidemic, even laughable. Now I receive most of my news from the so-called alternative media…
I myself certainly serve as a living proof of the vast changes that have happened in China – I was earning an income 6,000 times of my first job after college in 1993, when I retired 6 years ago. And no, I wasn’t a business owner either. I’d love to share some insights from an authentic local Chinese perspective.
Given his business background, it was hardly surprising that many of his posts focused on economic matters, effectively debunking some of the misleading criticism of the Chinese economy.
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— Afshin Rattansi (@afshinrattansi) January 29, 2025
For example, Hua noted that Western leaders often complain that many Chinese businesses are state-owned rather than private. But he pointed out that this criticism seemed logically inconsistent. America’s reigning neoliberal dogma had always maintained that government-owned enterprises were inherently inefficient and uncompetitive, so denouncing China for having many such state-owned enterprises that were successfully outcompeting private Western corporations merely demonstrated the bankruptcy of that ideological framework.
Instead, he argued that the ultimate ownership structure of such companies mattered less than whether the marketplace in which they operated was sufficiently competitive, and in many sectors such heavy market competition was far more common in China than in America:
While there is a mix of different types of ownerships (including fully foreign-owned like Tesla) in China, major players in these industries in the US are entirely privately owned.
In all these fields, China is pulling ahead or improving faster than the US for a critical reason – the marketplaces are simply more competitive in China. Ownership simply has no effect on enterprise/industry competitiveness.
In the electric automative sector, the US has one big player Tesla while China has BYD, Cherry, Great Wall, Nio, Xpeng, Li, Huawei, Xiaomi, and dozens more as well as Tesla.
In mobile phones, the US has one single player Apple while China has Huawei, Xiaomi, Honor, Vivo, Oppo, and also Apple and Samsung.
In ecommerce, the US has Amazon (with eBay at a distant No 2 with a fraction of Amazon’s market share) while China has Alibaba, JD, PDD, Douyin/TikTok Shopping and also Amazon and eBay (before they pulled out after losing the competition). Same is true for almost all other critical industries.
The secret of economic success is NOT ownership but rather the presence of competition (i.e. market). Competition leads to intense pressure to innovate, improve quality, and reduce costs. It leads to an expansion of capacity and scale as businesses try to compete and win. It leads to true meritocracy – i.e. may the best player win.
On the other hand, lack of competition leads to monopoly and stagnation as the players underinvest, pursue barriers against competition, and raise margins/prices. You can do an industry by industry analysis for US businesses and find out the level of concentration (thus lack of competition) very easily.
I would argue China is a far more market-oriented economy than the US in most industries. This is the underlying reason for China’s competitiveness and the so-called “overcapacity”. The US attempts to undermine China’s competitiveness will get nowhere because the Chinese do not buy into its self-serving “neoliberal” economic policies.
Hua argued that the severe consequences of such lack of market competition in America were most obvious in the military sector. Thus, despite our gargantuan military spending, we have been completely unable to match Russia’s far smaller economy in producing the munitions being expended in the Ukraine war:
One interesting manifestation of the US problem with its monopolistic private sector is its inability to keep up weapons production to support the Ukraine war. Its military industrial complex is plagued with undercapacity, high cost, and low efficiency despite having the world’s largest military budget (by an enormous margin). The consolidation of the vaulted military-industrial complex into 5 giants has led to a lack of competition and accountability in most parts of the defence acquisition system. It has led to undercapacity and extreme high costs (of course high margins).
Today while these private defence contractors boast the highest revenue and market cap globally, the US cannot even produce sufficient basic ammunitions such as 155′ artillery shells let alone missiles, warships, fighters and other sophisticated weapons at scale. If the US cannot outcompete production against Russia, what is its chance against China, the world’s largest industrial powerhouse? China’s “overcapacity” issue is indeed a nightmare for the US.
Question 4: War Between the U.S. and China
Who would prevail in a war between the United States and China?
Ron Unz—It obviously depends.
If China sent an expeditionary force to attack the West Coast of the U.S. or tried to occupy Canada or Mexico, our very short supply lines and our enormous numbers of land-based aircraft would doom the Chinese to a swift and certain defeat.
However, China has never been a militarily aggressive power and is extremely unlikely to launch such an attack.
Instead, any war fought between China and America would almost certainly occur under exactly the opposite conditions, taking place in the vicinity of the Taiwan Strait or the South China Sea, locations that are very close to China but thousands of miles distant from the United States. For that reason the outcome is likely to be very different.
In fact, China’s entire weapons procurement policy and military strategy has been based upon the goal of deterring or if necessary defeating American armed forces operating in its own close vicinity.
I personally hope that such a disastrous military conflict can be avoided. But over the last decade, the mainstream American media has regularly emphasized the likelihood of a war with China in the near future. A recent example was a lengthy late October article in the New York Times carrying the headline “The U.S. Army Prepares for War with China.”
Therefore, quite a number of Hua’s detailed posts focused upon the military implications of China’s technological development and the weapons systems that China was creating. He considered the recent record of America’s aggressive wars as very threatening to his country, and he reasonably regarded a war as likely to occur:
A war is coming, if you spend a minute listening to US politicians, generals and media who seem to want it with all their hearts.
For China, Russia, Iran or any other countries who want to remain sovereign, it is a choice between living on your knees or fighting with a stiff spine. The choice taken by the US vassal states in Europe, Asia, Australia, and elsewhere is neither desirable nor practical. So, whether we want it or not, things are coming down to a life-or-death fight, most likely in less than a decade.
Given these serious concerns, he summarized some of China’s major advances in military technology in very detailed and precise terms.
– China test launched its DF31AG ICBM successfully last month, making it the only country with a successful recent test performance in long-range (12,000 kilometre) nuclear attack capability. China also has DF41 in its arsenal, a Mach 25 18,000 km hypersonic ballistic missile that carries 6 times more nuclear warheads than DF31. These, together with submarine-launched JL-3, serve as a strong deterrent to US nuclear blackmail
– China 5th-gen stealth heavy fighter J20 has upgraded its engine with WS15. It now outperforms F22 (let alone the smaller F35) in speed, manoeuvrability, and longer beyond-visual-range air to air missile (PL17). Its stealth, avionics, radar, EW capability, speed, range, and firepower far exceeds F35, a medium-size jack-of-all-trades cheaper fighter which is now the main aerial combat platform for the US. China produces 100 J20s a year and the US has stopped producing F22 due to its high cost. There is also a two-seat version of J20 – the J20S – which has unmanned loyal wingman swarming capability. China has started production of its own medium-size stealth fighter J35 as a cheaper, high volume 5-th gen figher.
– China has fielded multiple hypersonic missile systems such as DF17, DF26, DF100, YJ21, while US has yet to field any, falling behind not just China and Russia but also Iran in this critical future military technology. Russia shocked the west with its hypersonic HGV missile Oreshnik in Ukraine just the other week. While the Oreshnik is still an experimental weapon, China’s DF17 or DF26 are mature systems tested many times over the years and have been deployed in the Rocket Force for half a decade. According to the US DoD, China has conducted twice more hypersonic missile tests in the past decade than all other countries combined.
– On the naval front, US Navy openly acknowledges China’s ship building capacity is 230 times of that of the US. The US Navy is now resorting to outsourcing navy ship building and maintenance to Korea and India, against US own laws
– China can produce conventional precision-guided rockets at the same unit cost (USD4-5000) as US builds dumb artillery ammos like the 155mm shells. The US DoD head of procurement warned in 2023 that China’s defence budget has a 3 or 4 to 1 advantage against the US in procurement value for money. Given its industrial base, China can not only produce more cheaply but in much larger volume as well. As we can see in Ukraine and the Middle East, quantity has a quality of its own when it comes to high intensity modern warfare. In a hot war, the cost exchange and quantity exchange will heavily favor China.
– China is the only country in the world that can mass produce CL-20, the most destructive non-nuclear explosives. Imagine CL-20 explosive warhead on DF17 in an attack on US aircraft carrier – a hit translates into 5000+ KIAs and $14 billion capital asset excluding aircrafts on board. The much-acclaimed “mother of all bombs” that the US dropped on the hapless Afghanis will fale next to that meteorite strike.
– China’s PHL16 multiple launcher rocket system is a high mobility high precision attack platform similar to HIMARS but it has a range of 500 KMs vs 300 km for HIMARS with higher payloads and higher precision (guided by the Beidou satellite system, which is itself far superior to the outdated GPS system the US military relies on). Unlike the HIMARS system which is treated as a scare miracle weapon by the west, China has deployed the PHL16 system to more than 40 army battalions in 4 provinces close to Taiwan. PHL16 alone can conduct blanket precision strikes on any point in Taiwan on road-mobile TELs. The Chinese call such cheap saturation strike weapon as “all-you-can-eat buffet” in a Taiwan pre-landing bombing campaign.
A few days later Hua followed this up with a lengthy post entitled “Comparing War Readiness Between China and the US,” and I found his overall analysis quite persuasive.
Once again, he began by emphasizing that a war seemed very likely:
It is hardly an exaggeration to say a military conflict is a high probability event between China and the US in the coming decade. There are flash points in the Taiwan Strait, the South China Sea and the East China Sea.
Rhetoric from the American officialdom and media clearly signals the US plans to militarily confront China and stop its economic, trade, and technological developments. Its fleets of ships and airplanes are constantly circling Chinese shore. It is mobilizing its lackeys in the region to fight on its side.
Mutual hostility is at the point for war to break out.
This won’t be a WWI type of sleepwalking into a war. Everyone knows a showdown is coming.
He then focused upon the industrial factors that would be likely to dominate such a conflict, and China’s strong superiority in that regard:
• The Ukraine war and the Middle Eastern conflicts have shown that modern wars between peer belligerents will be long, bloody, expensive, and above all, highly dependent on war production and logistics.
• China has a 3 to 1 advantage versus the US in overall industrial capacity and an unquantifiable advantage in surge capacity. China’s share of global manufacturing output is 35% vs. 12% for the US. China has idle or mothballed capacity for almost all major industrial products from steel to electronics to vehicles to ship building to drones.
• Such capacity advantage applies to the defense industry.
• Much of Chinese industrial capacity is state-owned and can be easily mobilized for defense production. All major defense firms are state owned and produce for purpose, rather than profit.
• China’s cost, speed, and scale advantages in industrial production are not in dispute while the US suffers from well-documented cost and production schedule issues in its military industrial complex.
• It’s safe to say China enjoys the same pole position in its capacity to sustain a long war as the US enjoyed in WWII. China has an overwhelming industrial superiority that the US has never experienced with any adversaries in its history.
He also emphasized that the conflict would occur close to China but very far from the United States:
• The war will be fought in China’s shores or near abroad – possibly Japan and the Philippines. Much of the action will happen in a radius that can be covered by Chinese intermediate range missiles and land-based bombers and fighters.
• The nearest US territory will be Guam, 4,800 kilometers away. The US does have military bases in Japan, Korea and the Philippines. But these countries will take the risk of being bombarded by China if they allow these bases to be used against China. It’s unclear how they will choose despite the hawkish rhetoric expressed in their pledge of allegiance to the US. One can talk tough now but act quite differently when facing certain destruction.
• In essence, the war will be one between a landed fortress and an expeditionary air and maritime force. For most of the history of war, ships lose to fortress.
He noted that all of America’s many wars since World War II have been fought against technically inferior opponents against which our military possessed enormous superiority and could operate with near total impunity. However:
• None of these US military assumptions apply in a war with China and will be a liability rather than asset. The muscle memory of the US military will be deadly to itself in the coming war.
• Chinese military doctrines have been honed for the last 70+ years around territorial defense and Taiwan reunification. The explicit mission of the PLA is to ensure the success of a war in the Taiwan Strait and South China Sea.
• The specific war doctrine for these scenarios is called Anti Access Area Denial (A2AD). The essence is to deny enemy access to the theater of war and inflict unacceptable losses for any intervention…
• These assets bear no resemblance of anything the US military has fought against before.
• China also brings to the battle no presumptions about the enemy and their capabilities since the Chinese military has been peaceful for over 40 years. Despite the lack of experience, the upside is such a military will adapt to changing war environment more rapidly and adjust its strategies and tactics under the circumstances. There is no bad habits or assumptions to unlearn.
He also argued that China’s national support for a war fought so close to its own homeland would be enormously greater than America’s ideological commitment to its continued imperial adventure more than six thousand miles away in East Asia:
• One often overlooked aspect of war is the will to fight. It comes down to why the military is putting their lives on the line. In a peer to peer situation, the party that can endure the most pain for the longest will prevail.
• China is fighting for its territorial integrity and its national pride. It has the collective will of the population firmly behind it. The US is fighting to maintain its hegemonic rule in an imperialist adventure. The pain threshold of its society is much lower. Put it bluntly, China is much more casualty tolerant than the US will ever be in a war at China’s door step.
• Cost of failure calculation differs completely. For the Chinese, losing a war is an existential threat. No government can hope to retain its legitimacy if it backs down from a war when the barbarians are at the gate. For the US, it’s just a chess board move in the “great game”. Losing a war in Taiwan or SCS is a setback but doesn’t represent an existential problem.
• The late Singaporean Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew summarized the stakes well – “China will fight a second time, a third time until it wins when it comes to Taiwan and will never give up”. Can the US say that about its commitment?
Finally, he pointed out that America’s own military track record over the last three generations had hardly been impressive:
• The US has a very spotty track record in wars after WWII despite having a military budget that dwarfs the rest of the world. It practically lost every war except the 1991 first gulf war against Iraq.
• Interestingly, China was the first country that broke the US string of military successes when China pushed the US back from the Yalu River to the 38th Parallel and fought the US and its allies to a standstill in the Korean peninsular in the early 1950s…
• China did that when it had to send a poorly equipped peasant army after 4 years’ bloody civil war. China’s GDP in that time was less than 5% of the US, which was at the pinnacle of its military and economic power after WWII.
Therefore I found it very difficult to disagree with his ultimate conclusion:
When you consider the capacity for war, the geography, the will to fight, the military doctrines and the two countries’ track record against each other, it is an easy bet who will prevail in the next war.
Question 5: Comparing the Size of the Two Economies
Is GDP a reliable way of comparing the size of China’s economy to America’s?
Ron Unz—The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) represents the total value of all the goods and services produced in a country, and is a useful means of comparing the size of two economies, but it must be treated carefully.
First, it’s generally better to focus on GDPs that are adjusted for Purchasing Power Parity (PPP). These are based upon local prices, rather than relying upon nominal exchange rates.
For example, if China and America each produced a ton of steel of similar quality, the contribution to their nominal GDPs might be very different, while under the PPP adjustment the impact would be similar. The use of PPP is sometimes called using “world prices” or “real prices” with the resulting PPP-adjusted GDP called “Real GDP.”
Another, somewhat less common approach is to focus on the “productive GDP,” namely the portion of the GDP that excludes the service sector.
Obviously, many service industries are absolutely necessary in a modern economy, and are just as legitimate and real as manufacturing, agriculture, construction, or mining. But unfortunately service sector economic statistics are also far more easily manipulated, especially those involving the non-tradeable service sector.
Here’s an example of what I mean.
Suppose that John and Bill each set up a diversity-coaching business, with John hiring Bill as a diversity-coach for a salary of $1 million per year, and Bill reciprocating by hiring John as a diversity-coach for the same annual salary. Except for possible tax payments, no net money has changed hands and no net wealth has been created. But the size of the service sector GDP will have been boosted by $2 million per year, falsely suggesting a large increase in national prosperity.
Or consider a less ridiculous example. Parents normally look after their own children. But suppose families instead swapped their children with their neighbors and hired the latter for that purpose. This would produce a huge apparent increase in service sector GDP without anyone gaining any actual economic benefit.
In one of his posts, Hua also noted that a related sort of phantom economic activity called “imputations” are already included in the U.S. GDP, which is therefore inflated as a result:
1. Imputations: this refers to “economic output” that is NOT traded in the marketplace but assigned a value in GDP calculation. One example is the imputed rental of owner-occupied housing, which estimate how much rent you would have to pay if your own house was rented to you. This value is included in the reported GDP in the US. Another example is the treatment of employer-provided health insurance, which estimates how much health insurance you would pay yourself if it was not provided by employer. Again, this imputation is included in GDP calculation in the US.
As of 2023, such imputations account for $4 trillion in US GDP (round 14% of total).
In China, imputation to GDP is ZERO because China doesn’t recognize the concept of imputed/implied economic output in its statistics compilation. Too bad your house is not assigned an arbitrary “productive value” once you buy it in China.
In addition, Hua pointed out that Western governments have sometimes even further inflated their GDPs by including criminal activity in their service economy:
A side note, I also ran across some less wholesome facts when doing research on the subject. I refer to a Financial Times report just for a laugh. In 2014, UK started to include prostitution and illegal drugs in its GDP reporting to the tune of 10 billion pounds a year. This raised the reported UK GDP by 5% in an effort to help the government raise its debt ceiling.
To derive at this number, the statistics bureau had to make some assumptions: “The ONS breakdown estimates that each of the UK’s estimated 60,879 prostitutes took about 25 clients a week in 2009, at an average rate of £67.16. It also estimates that the UK had 38,000 heroin users, while sales of the drug amounted to £754m with a street price of £37 a gram.”
But the GDP is intended to provide a means of measuring national economic prosperity, so including crimes such as prostitution, drug-dealing, burglary, and armed robbery in the service sector economy defeats the entire purpose of that metric and distorts our understanding of a country’s economic situation.
The benefit of focusing upon the productive GDP excluding services has been emphasized by some noted academics. Jacques Sapir serves as director of studies at the EHESS, one of France’s leading academic institutions, and in late 2022 he published a short article making the case that focusing on real productive GDP removes all these potential distortions. Therefore, he suggested that this probably produces a much more realistic estimate of the comparative economic strengths of different countries, including China and the U.S.
- Assessing the Russian and Chinese Economies Geostrategically
Jacques Sapir • American Affairs • November 20, 2022 • 1,700 Words
He argued that during periods of sharp international conflict, the productive sectors of GDP—industry, mining, agriculture, and construction—probably constitute a far better measure of relative economic power, and Russia was much stronger in that category. So although Russia’s nominal GDP was merely half that of France, its real productive economy was more than twice as large, representing nearly a five-fold shift in relative economic power. This helped explain why Russia so easily surmounted the Western sanctions that had been expected to cripple it. Similarly, as far back as 2019, China’s real productive economy was already three times larger than that of America.
These economic trends favoring Russia and China have continued over the last couple of years, and Russia’s real productive economy has now surpassed that of both Japan and Germany to become the fourth largest in the world. Meanwhile, China’s lead over the nations of the West has steadily grown during that same period. I recently noted that although the New York Times has run numerous wordy articles describing China’s alleged economic stagnation, an actual chart it displayed suggested something extremely different:
As I explained:
But automobiles are the world’s largest industrial sector, with manufacturing and sales together totaling nearly $10 trillion per year, almost twice that of any other. And the following month the Times published a chart showing the actual trajectory of China’s auto exports compared with that of other countries, and the former had now reached a level roughly six times greater than that of the U.S.
Coal mining is also one of the world’s largest industries, and China’s production is more than five times greater than our own, while Chinese steel production is almost thirteen times larger. The American agricultural sector is one of our main national strengths, but Chinese farmers grow three times as much wheat as we do. According to Pentagon estimates, China’s current ship-building capacity is a staggering 232 times greater than our own.
Obviously America still dominates some other important sectors of production, with our innovative fracking technology allowing us to produce several times as much oil and natural gas as does China. But if we consult the aggregate economic statistics provided by the CIA World Factbook or other international organizations, we find that the total size of China’s real productive economy—perhaps the most reliable measure of global economic power—is already more than three times larger than that of the U.S. and also growing much more rapidly. Indeed, according to that important economic metric, China now easily outweighs the combined total of the entire American-led bloc—the United States, the rest of the Anglosphere, the European Union, and Japan—an astonishing achievement, and something very different from what most casual readers of the Times might assume.
Therefore, a few months ago I produced a table listing the size of the world’s largest two dozen economies, including their nominal, real, and real productive figures. All this data is drawn from the CIA World Factbook, which conveniently provides estimates of the 2023 real PPP-adjusted GDP for the countries of the world, as well as the most recent figures for the nominal GDPs, the economic sector composition, and the national populations. Since some of these estimates come from slightly different years, I’ve rounded the values to emphasize that these statistics are merely approximations.
| 2023 GDP | 2023 GDP ($Millions) | Per Capita Incomes | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Country | Nominal | Total PPP | Productive PPP | Nominal | PPP | Productive PPP |
| China | 17,795,000 | 31,227,000 | 15,114,000 | 12,600 | 22,100 | 10,700 |
| European Union | 18,349,000 | 25,399,000 | 6,782,000 | 40,800 | 56,500 | 15,100 |
| USA | 27,361,000 | 24,662,000 | 4,932,000 | 80,000 | 72,100 | 14,400 |
| India | 3,550,000 | 13,104,000 | 5,032,000 | 2,500 | 9,300 | 3,600 |
| Japan | 4,213,000 | 5,761,000 | 1,797,000 | 34,200 | 46,800 | 14,600 |
| Germany | 4,456,000 | 5,230,000 | 1,642,000 | 53,000 | 62,200 | 19,500 |
| Russia | 2,021,000 | 5,816,000 | 2,158,000 | 14,400 | 41,300 | 15,300 |
| Indonesia | 1,371,000 | 3,906,000 | 2,137,000 | 4,900 | 13,900 | 7,600 |
| Brazil | 2,174,000 | 4,016,000 | 1,096,000 | 9,900 | 18,300 | 5,000 |
| France | 3,031,000 | 3,764,000 | 798,000 | 44,300 | 55,000 | 11,700 |
| United Kingdom | 3,340,000 | 3,700,000 | 773,000 | 48,800 | 54,000 | 11,300 |
| Mexico | 1,789,000 | 2,873,000 | 1,020,000 | 13,700 | 22,000 | 7,800 |
| Italy | 2,255,000 | 3,097,000 | 805,000 | 37,000 | 50,800 | 13,200 |
| Turkey | 1,108,000 | 2,936,000 | 1,148,000 | 13,200 | 34,900 | 13,600 |
| South Korea | 1,713,000 | 2,615,000 | 1,085,000 | 32,900 | 50,200 | 20,800 |
| Spain | 1,581,000 | 2,242,000 | 578,000 | 33,400 | 47,400 | 12,200 |
| Saudi Arabia | 1,068,000 | 1,831,000 | 857,000 | 29,200 | 50,100 | 23,400 |
| Canada | 2,140,000 | 2,238,000 | 667,000 | 55,200 | 57,700 | 17,200 |
| Iran | 402,000 | 1,440,000 | 647,000 | 4,500 | 16,300 | 7,300 |
| Australia | 1,724,000 | 1,584,000 | 458,000 | 64,400 | 59,200 | 17,100 |
| Thailand | 515,000 | 1,516,000 | 673,000 | 7,400 | 21,700 | 9,600 |
| Egypt | 396,000 | 1,912,000 | 880,000 | 3,600 | 17,200 | 7,900 |
| Taiwan | 611,000 | 1,143,000 | 432,000 | 25,900 | 48,400 | 18,300 |
| Poland | 811,000 | 1,616,000 | 688,000 | 20,900 | 41,700 | 17,800 |
| Nigeria | 363,000 | 1,275,000 | 556,000 | 1,500 | 5,400 | 2,300 |
| Pakistan | 338,000 | 1,347,000 | 586,000 | 1,300 | 5,300 | 2,300 |
If we focus on the interesting metric of Per Capita Real Productive Income, we see that although the population of the Western bloc—the U.S., the EU, and Japan—is still comfortably ahead of China, the difference is much smaller than most Westerners might assume. This may provide an indication that the actual standard of living for ordinary citizens in those different countries is not so very different, and may be rapidly converging. Meanwhile, although the Western media often pairs China with India, the figure for that latter country is only about one-third as large.
- American Pravda: A Rising China Faces the West
Ron Unz • The Unz Review • August 19, 2024 • 9,600 Words
Question 6: The Technological Edge
Does the US still have a technological edge over China?
Ron Unz—Over the last couple of years American leaders have pointed to our huge lead in revolutionary AI systems as proof of our technological supremacy. This AI boom has produced a multi-trillion-dollar rise in the stock market value of companies involved in this sector, with AI chip-maker Nvidia of Silicon Valley becoming the world’s most valuable company, reaching a capitalization that topped $3.6 trillion.
The Biden Administration sought to protect America’s apparent lead through measures of doubtful international legality, violating our free trade agreements by banning the sale of cutting-edge AI chips to China while also strong-arming our allies into similarly preventing China from buying their top-tier chip-making equipment.
Hundreds of billions of dollars of investment capital flowed into AI startups such as OpenAI or the AI projects of leading tech corporations such as Alphabet, Meta, and Microsoft. An unprecedented building-boom for new data centers began, as well as a scramble for the necessary sources of energy to power them. Although all of these AI projects were still losing money, often totaling many billions of dollars per year, they were considered proof that America would dominate the most important technologies of the future.
This continued under the incoming Trump Administration, with Trump holding a January 21st press conference with OpenAI and its top allies, boasting of their plans to invest a gargantuan $500 billion in a new AI project, grandiosely named Stargate.
But almost simultaneously with those bold words, that AI propaganda-bubble suddenly burst. A small, totally unknown Chinese AI company called DeepSeek released a new AI system that was very comparable to the best of America’s AI models, but built at tiny fraction of their cost. Once DeepSeek’s effectiveness was confirmed, it became the #1 app downloaded on the Apple store, and also inspired days of front-page stories all across the world
Thus, even as Trump was bragging of his plans for a half-trillion-dollar investment in AI, a small Chinese firm had delivered an excellent AI system that only cost $5.6 million, a figure 99.999% lower, with that system created using only second-tier AI chips and far fewer of those. Indeed, some people pointed out that the entire development cost of the DeepSeek AI was much less than the annual salary of many individual American AI experts. The financial implications were obvious and within the next day or so a trillion dollars of the stock market value of AI-related American corporations evaporated.
Moreover, DeepSeek released its AI product as an open source system, allowing everyone in the world to examine and incorporate that code into their own AI projects. Dozens of companies have already done this, severely challenging the entirely proprietary systems of America’s reigning AI leaders.
A couple of your own articles from last week did an excellent job of describing this global technological earthquake:
- China’s DeepSeek Bombshell Rocks Trump’s $500B AI Boondoggle
Mike Whitney • The Unz Review • January 22, 2025 • 2,700 Words - China’s DeepSeek AI Moves the Capital of Tech from Palo Alto to Hangzhou
Mike Whitney • The Unz Review • January 24, 2025 • 1,200 Words
This sudden, striking new development certainly reinforced the conclusions that Hua had reached in a number of his posts that I had heavily cited and excerpted in my own long analysis of the China/America competition.
Just as Hua believed that China was outperforming America economically, he felt that trends also favored China in the technological competition between the two countries and discussed these issues in a December post. He analyzed the findings of ASPI, an Australian-based thinktank generally quite hostile to China, which had recently published its 2024 Critical Technology Tracker, an annual comparative analysis covering 64 different technologies in 8 meta categories, with the latter including:
- Advanced Information and Communication Technologies
- Advanced Materials and Manufacturing
- AI Technologies
- Biotech, Gene Technologies and Vaccines
- Defence, Space, Robotics and Transportation
- Energy and Environment
- Quantum Technologies
- Sensing, Timing and Navigation
Because this ASPI report tracked these same data categories back to 2003, it allowed the trends to be shown over time, and over the last twenty years these had shifted dramatically in China’s favor.
China currently leads in 57 of the 64 technologies in the 5 year period between 2019 and 2023. US leads in 7. There has been a stunning shift of research leadership over the past two decades from the US to China.
- China led 52 of the 64 technologies in the 5 year period between 2018 and 2022 in the 2023 report; it took the lead in 5 more technologies one year later
- US led in 60 of the 64 technologies between 2003 and 2007
- China led in only 3 of the 64 technologies between 2003 and 2007
The leadership competition for these critical technologies is basically between China and the US. Europe and rest of Asia (Korea, Japan, India, Singapore) play a secondary role. In most fields, the lead China and US have over the rest of the world is massive.
The report also focused upon the potential monopolies in major technologies:
ASPI also attempts to measure the risk of countries holding a monopoly in research…
- China is the lead country in everyone one of the technologies classified as “high risk” – meaning China is the only country globally with a “monopoly” in high impact research of any technologies; US may have a lead in certain technologies but does not pose a monopoly risk
- 24 of the 64 technologies are at high risk of Chinese monopoly – meaning Chinese scientists and Chinese institutions are doing an overwhelming share (over 75%) of high impact research in these fields.
- Such high monopoly risk fields include many with defence applications such as radar, advanced aircraft engines, drones/swarming/collaborative robots and satellite positioning and navigation.
ASPI also identifies the institutions that are leading such research work in each country. Here is the result –
- The Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) is by far the world’s largest and highest performing institution in high impact research with a global lead in 31 of 64 technologies
- Other strong Chinese research institutions include Peking University, Tsinghua University, Harbin Institute of Technology, Hong Kong Polytechnic, Beihang, Northwestern Polytechnical University, National University of Defence Technology, Zhejiang University, etc.
- In the US, technology companies, including Google, IBM, Meta, and Microsoft has strong positions in AI, quantum and computing technologies. Other strong performers include NASA, MIT, GeorgiaTech, Carnegie Mellon, Standford University, etc.
His post closed by noting that these technological advantages had direct commercial and military consequences:
China now leads the world in many of the most important future technologies. The success of its commercial companies in telecommunications (Huawei, Zongxin), EV (BYD, Geely, Great Wall, etc.), battery (CATL, BYD) and Photovoltaics (Tongwei Solar, JA, Aiko, etc.) are directly built on such R&D prowess.
Similarly, the Chinese military’s modernization is built on the massive technological development of the country’s scientific community and its industrial base.
With its lead in science and technology research, China is positioned to outcompete the US in both economic and military arenas in the coming years.
In my November article on the underlying factors behind China’s rise, I had sharply criticized Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson, the 2024 winners of the Nobel Prize in Economics, for their past claims that China had no hope of becoming a major technological innovator and would be permanently relegated to merely copying Western products. Although I briefly noted a couple of the crucial technologies in which China now led the world, I had no idea that its lead had become so widespread across so many important categories, and I would have certainly cited this very comprehensive assessment if I’d had it available at the time.
- China vs. America
The Technological Competition Between China and America
Ron Unz • The Unz Review • January 13, 2025 • 14,100 Words
Question 7: Is China a Communist Country?
People in the West typically disparage China as a “communist” country, but is that an accurate description? In your article, you allude to the Confucian influence on Chinese society that emphasizes personal virtue and moral character aimed at ‘creating a harmonious society.’ Isn’t Confucianism—which permeates the entire culture—more responsible for China’s meteoric rise than communism?
Ron Unz—Today’s China is still ruled by a political organization that calls itself a “Communist Party,” with its government paying lip service to that ideology and its past historic figures such as Marx, Engels, and Mao. But the actual reality of China’s economic and social system has evolved in a very different direction, and today’s China bears almost no resemblance whatsoever to the classic Communist system of the Soviet Union or similar states.
Free enterprise of a very dynamic type is almost universal in China from top to bottom, ranging from the ubiquitous local village markets up to gigantic multi-billion-dollar private corporations listed on the different stock markets, including some of the world’s largest real estate development conglomerates. Although there is central government control of business activity, in some respects that control is less heavy-handed or intrusive than what is found in the United States or other Western countries that no one would ever call “Communist.” And aside from the U.S., China has the world’s largest number of billionaires.
Obviously, a “Communist country” based upon widespread free enterprise and stock markets that contains huge numbers of billionaires is hardly a “Communist country” in the usual meaning of the term.
Thus, today’s Chinese government fails to fit within the simple ideological framework of the old Cold War Era, and last year I happened to read an interesting book analyzing China’s political system.
The author of The China Model was Daniel A. Bell, an American academic holding a Western-funded professorship at prestigious Tsinghua University in Beijing, and his subtitle “Political Meritocracy and the Limits of Democracy” explained the issues he discussed. His book had originally appeared in 2015 with the paperback edition published the following year.
Although back then our countries were still on relatively friendly terms, the DC political elites were already beginning to view the growing economic power of China as a looming threat on the horizon. This was indicated by the author’s preface to the 2016 paperback edition, in which he expressed his surprise that his very restrained discussion of the Chinese political system had attracted such an unexpected outpouring of attention, much of it hostile and filled with claims that he had whitewashed a dictatorial regime.
Despite such angry reactions, Bell’s main points seemed quite innocuous and even rather obvious to me. He argued that in recent decades, the Chinese political system, certainly including its ruling Communist Party, had gradually shifted back to that country’s old Confucianist traditions, with a strong emphasis on meritocracy as the major factor in advancement, including the important role of education and examinations. Although patronage networks certainly played a role, especially at the very top, officials generally rose only if they had performed well at lower levels of government, with performance usually judged by economic growth. As a result, Bell argued that the top leaders in China were unusually competent compared to their counterparts elsewhere in the world, notably including those in democratically-run countries.
He summarized the post-Mao system in China as tending towards “Democracy at the bottom, experimentation in the middle, and meritocracy at the top,” a straightforward summary of his overall thesis.
China is certainly a one-party state ruled by the CCP—the Chinese Communist Party—but as a commenter recently suggested, a better description of those same initials might be “the Chinese Civilization Party” or even “the Chinese Confucianist Party.”
In one of his earliest comments on our website, Hua had suggested something very similar, emphasizing the role of the positive traits inculcated by the Confucianist thought that had traditionally played such a central role in Chinese culture:
…One critical thing to know about China is the importance the country and its population attach to the concept of meritocracy and virture in personal behavior, economic life, and governance. This is the ideal to aspire as taught by Confucius since 500BCE. Just like the Bible, Confucius thoughts is a guide to the Chinese nation for the last 2500 years. Unlike the Bible, it is still a required part of the curriculum for every school child (except during the turbulent times of Cultural Revolution). The revival of Confucius teaching is a big part of the country’s success.
Another fairly accurate if perhaps more controversial way of describing China’s current system of government is that it amounts to national socialism, but without the extremely negative connotations implied by that term in today’s West. This ideological approach has become much stronger since President Xi Jinping came to power in 2013. For example, as Hua explained:
- Xi announced a nation wide drive for Common Prosperity and poverty reduction initiative. 3 million grassroot officials were dispatched to rural areas to live and work on site for “targeted poverty allevation” in the countryside from 1 to 3 years. 1 trillion RMB ($150 billion) was invested. As a result, over 100 million people were brought out of extreme poverty.
- meanwhile, the government has enforced pay reduction in various bureaucracies and the financial service industry in particular. China is probably the only country in the world where bankers are being paid less today than 5 years ago. A side benefit is to reduce the attractiveness of financial industry compared with other productive sectors of the economy. After all, actual engineers are far more important for the society and economy than “financial” engineers.
Leading Western analysts have described President Xi’s policies in very similar terms, though often with strongly negative implications. For example, former Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd speaks fluent Mandarin and as a leading diplomat had followed China closely for decades, first encountering Xi more than 35 years ago, when both were very junior figures and privately meeting and speaking with him on numerous occasions since then.
A few years ago, he earned a Ph.D. at Oxford University with his doctoral dissertation being on the policies and world view of President Xi, and he recently published a very lengthy book entitled On Xi Jinping, incorporating much of that material.
In that work, Rudd argued that Xi has been moving China towards what the author calls “Marxist Nationalism,” including “taking Chinese politics to the Leninist left, Chinese economics to the Marxist left, and Chinese foreign policy to the nationalist right.”
Although this is probably somewhat exaggerated and the implications of such phrases are far too negative in the Western context, Rudd seems to be describing the same basic facts as those that Hua presents in a far more positive sense.
As I’d mentioned earlier, the tremendous and totally unexpected sudden success of China’s DeepSeek AI system has hugely dominated the Western headlines over the last week or two, and some of the background to that technological triumph is quite intriguing.
For example, DeepSeek is actually a project of High-Flyer, a highly-successful Chinese hedge-fund that was founded in 2016 and manages some $8 billion of assets using AI systems. But over the last several years, President Xi’s Chinese government has exerted political pressure against companies focused on financial engineering, and this led CEO Liang Wenfeng to shift some of his effort away from the use of AI systems for trading towards the development of more advanced AI systems in general, with DeepSeek being the result. As the New York Times explained:
High-Flyer had thrived by capitalizing on a market dominated by China’s retail investors, who are known for jumping in and out of stocks impulsively. In 2021, High-Flyer found itself pressured by regulatory crackdowns in China on speculative trading, which the authorities in Beijing felt was at odds with their attempts to keep markets calm.
So High-Flyer pursued a new opportunity that it said aligned better with Chinese government priorities: advanced A.I.
“We want to do things with greater value and things that go beyond the investment industry, but it has been misinterpreted as A.I. stock speculation,” High-Flyer’s chief executive, Lu Zhengzhe, told Chinese state media in 2023. “We have set up a new team independent of investment, which is equivalent to a second start-up.”
DeepSeek was born. As with many other Chinese start-ups, DeepSeek came at an established market with a different business approach.
Thus, according to the Western media, DeepSeek’s huge global success seems directly attributable to the recent government policies emphasized by President Xi.
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It’s all wrong. Please read these articles. There is a lot of misinformation, misdirection, etc.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/01/31/deepseek-ai-china-us-nvidia/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rashishrivastava/2025/01/28/the-prompt-is-the-deepseek-panic-overblown/
https://www.financialexpress.com/world-news/deepseek-likely-spent-more-than-widely-reported-6-million-figure-experts/3728625/
More interesting that the budget details is the nature of their software, actually. You see, their software does not infer its answers by aggregating information from the web itself. Instead, it steps back one hop, and generates answers by aggregating answers from other AIs. To put it simply, their AI would never have existed if they were not simply piggybacking off of the prodigious efforts of Google and OpenAI. That’s not to knock Chinese people: after all, many Chinese people work at Google and OpenAI. But regardless, this is the reality. The news is overblown. Please watch this youtube from a top-tier former core OS Microsoft engineer about DeepSeek for a little more detail:
Video Link
Ron is spot-on when it comes to assessing the current trajectory of China and the US, with the former rising and the latter declining. But I was taken aback by some of his historical analysis, especially comparing Chinsese history to the West’s more broadly. Particularly this bit:
This gets it totally backwards. In terms of technological and social advancement, the Roman Empire was the “dark ages.” What tiny amount of scientific progress was made during the long and brutal Roman supremacy was almost entirely accomplished by Greek populations and even this tiny light was quickly extinguished. It is almost impressive how little Rome managed to invent or accomplish given its immense population and timespan.
This fact is especially notable given the immense flourishing of the Hellenistic and Medieval periods which came before and after it – arguably the two greatest periods of advancement and increase in social capital in human history.
How does this relate to China? Well Ron’s hypothesis is that centralization is a cause of China’s recent success. I have the opposite opinion – China should naturally be more powerful than the West based on geography, genetics, etc., and centralization is exactly why it fell behind. Note how the greatest period of advancement in the West all resulted from intense political fragmentation – the Greek classical and Hellenstic periods, the middle ages and Renaissance, and later the industrial revolution in the 19th century.
If China had seen a political breakdown akin to Rome in the West, I fully expect they would have seen an industrial revolution before Europe – in 18th or even 17th centuries.
Why has this reversed? Well, the West has, over the past century, become more centralized – this is exactly what “globalization” entails, a mass erosion of local authority. China has remained at the same level, and respects autonomy in its partners more than the West does. Thus its natural advantage in population and resources, plus just better government, have allowed it it re-assert its expected place in global affairs.
Note that this is precisely why a “multipolar world” is so vital to continued human advancement.
The phantom economy is America’s curse indeed.
It isn’t only the joke example of two guys hiring each other at 1M per year as diversity coaches.
Decades ago Jerry Pournelle estimated the number of tax-preparers, lawyers, offshore advisors, and all of that as billions of dollars IN the economy but producing precisely nothing.
For a good time, compare what productive workers now make compared to the phantom economy. In one case a university DEI advisor really was pulling in 200K/months, over a million a year in plain.
This is called a hollowed out economy. It was predicted in the 1980s and it’s now the rule, not the exception.
American belligerence in the world — and I include our current numbskull and his tariffs –has got to quit. We must reindustrialize and create a livable nation.
None of this requires war with China or anyone else. It just requires we think a bit. Start by shutting down mass media, the source of belligerent thinking for 50 years now.
This is too long. I doubt if China would “beat” the US. I doubt there would be a war. If there were a war, I doubt that there would be “winners.”
Well, maybe that’s true and maybe that’s not. But the release of DeepSeek caused a trillion dollars of AI market value to disappear.
So I can think of a trillion reasons why an army of people would have been immediately hired to go everywhere on the Internet and make your claims even if they were entirely false.
What you say might be true, the point is they created an app that can do this task of combining the answers from other AI generate answers. Why these guys couldn’t do that? The answer is obvious and simple. They all wanted to protect their market monopoly share. With such a mind set can you expect these guys to find better answers? Thanks
Video Link
The chinks will have remote controlled tanks. They were right about not letting Paratroopers attack these things though. Lol.
What you say might be true, the point is they created an app that can do this task of combining the answers from other AI generate answers. Why these guys couldn’t do that? The answer is obvious and simple. They all wanted to protect their market monopoly share. With such a mind set can you expect these guys to find better answers?
Also remember “China is probably the only country in the world where bankers are being paid less today than 5 years ago. A side benefit is to reduce the attractiveness of financial industry compared with other productive sectors of the economy. After all, actual engineers are far more important for the society and economy than “financial” engineers.”
I remember very vividly Finacial Engineer during Pres Reagan years who made a bundle by buying up companies and selling the parts of companies under the motto “Parts are worth more than the Whole”
With such a mind set why would anybody with a brain and some money, will spend money to build a company when they can make a bundle without much hassle?
Thanks
I believe it unlikely that a protracted war – one lasting many months – could even happen, because the Chinese would not need that length of time to force a “cessation of hostilities” in their own backyard, so to speak. As Mr. Unz noted, an homogeneous, natively intelligent population would be fighting for the sake of their racial kin and for their survival. But on the US ship, would L’Quanze and Pedro be willing to suffer, or possibly die, for Billy Joe?
I often claim that Whites in the US, who are the people with whom I am concerned, do not believe in reality and are very often ferociously opposed to any factual statement that contradicts their fantasies, most particularly religious ones. So be it. If the Chinese are the superior race, nature will make her judgment, just as it should be.
I think you got it wrong my friend. This model is based on how we learn. It teaches you how to think.
Here is a video about the deepseek r1
Video Link
The idea that the USA can fight a war near China is absurd. We have eight big airbases in the region and China has hundreds. Ours will be blasted with missiles the first day and China may choose to strike Pearl Harbor too! China has the power to quickly land forces to seize our mostly undefended colonies of Guam and Okinawa and rightly claim the effort is to free them.
Our allies in the region are likely to pass on World War III. China is their major trading partner and they don’t want to be destroyed as suckers in a superpower fight. Ethnic Chinese control half the business in the Philippines so they will tell us to stay away. South Korea has close historical ties to China. Taiwan is Han Chinese! China is its primary trading partner and biggest source of tourism. Only Japan may side with the USA.
Note that China is on the other side of the world and 90% of our military power is in the USA. Attempting to send most of it to the Western Pacific and support a large force there is something the US military cannot do, we lack 95% of the needed ships. But playing the China threat is a huge racket for our military industry. Their salesmen often make me laugh by citing the danger of “communist” China because they outperform our capitalist industries.
For those still confused by lies about China’s Uyghur oppression, here is a short video:
Video Link
Did you really cite the top western propaganda newspapers as truthful news! Then post a video from a Microsoft engineer to prove his company is unaffected. That’s what we expect from an “Anon”.
Whites have been dumbed down and are stuck in a world of perpetual denial that their easy way of life is about to end. They have been resting on the laurels of their forefathers for 8 decades,and have just partied for the most part. Like Dean Wurmer said ” Being fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life son”. We are going to pay a heavy, but justified price for this.
Historian Vladimir Brovkin has similar views on China with Ron Unz. He agrees with Unz.
Video Link
eyes never lie.
Aesthetic Suasion is Real.
Tiananmen Square Massacre was 100% for real. I know a man who was at that place at that time, and then he was nearly killed.
Don’t censor.
Imho – when any all out war begins between nuclear powered nations all of humanity will perish – how can there be any winners if everyone is dead?
China’s economy has far more competition than North America, as does Europe. In the States, same as in Canada most of the economy is run by oligopolies. A few big companies in every economic field control the whole market. Almost everywhere we have to pay monopoly prices.
Also, as it been rightly pointed out in the article, GDP is pretty much useless for comparing economies. Especially in the service sector we attribute way too much value to certain services rendered. Not only that, the remuneration for services is completely disproportionate to the value created in many cases. Take a person that cleanes toilets in a mall for example, it creates far more value to society than any hedge fund manager, yet the manager is being payed multiples than the cleaner. Add to it the whole rentier class of the economy that sucks money from the working class, which gets added to the GDP, while no value is actually created. Chinas economy surpassed the United States years ago and if it would not be for the dollar the charade of economic strength of the States would have faltered with it.
“I can think of a trillion reasons why an army of people would have been immediately hired to go everywhere on the Internet and make your claims even if they were entirely false.”
Pravda, American style
(e.g. “don’t believe everything China is telling the world, after all, they’re economically backward”–signed the US Deep State).
Don’t worry-the suicidal cane-toads of the Austfailian foreign policy sewer will die for our ‘Great and Powerful Friend’. And take the rest of us with them.
Without belligerence, arrogance and paranoia you wouldn’t be Yanks any more.
Thanks for another great article Ron & Mike.
Several things you mentioned have come together in a recent interview I watched on Youtube. The guest was Louis Gave, a French hedge fund manager (or some other finance world job) living in China.
The themes of Hyper-competition, State governance, Meritocracy was illustrated quite nicely in his telling of the EV phenomenon. I describe it from memory:
The Western conception of Chinese state governance is that Xi Jinping sits in his office, and directs BYD to build this many cars, with this feature and that, and sell it at this price. This is totally wrong.
The reality is more akin to the Central Government in Beijing issues a set of guidelines, a wishlist of sorts. In this case they want to promote the EV industry in China and create a set of strong EV car manufacturers.
A mayor of a city in one of the provinces decides that this is chance to improve the economy of his city, and at the same time enhance his promotion prospects. So he invites local entrepreneurs, young researchers from the local universities etc to come come up with proposals. He selects the most promising proposals, then helps the new entrepreneurs seek out funding from banks, clearing the way for land grants for building factories etc.
What happens in this particular city, also happens in many other cities across China. Pretty soon, there are 200 new EV car companies in China. This is when the “hunger games” of EV cars start. Brutal competition weeds out all except the most dynamic and driven companies.
If this city mayor’s bet turns out to be one of the big success stories, then his chances of promotion to provincial governor now became alot bigger.
This story illustrates the competition not just between companies, but also between the government officials.
I have *absolutely no doubt whatsoever* that the whole full slew of anti China and China mocking articles we see in such trash publications The Economist magazine, and other so called ‘quality’ press outlets such as the FT, the WSJ, the NYT, Reuters, Bloomberg etc etc – and not to mention all those pithy, snappy little articles which seem to bombard one’s internet feed are being deliberately planned, organised and disseminated by a central control body – think of Langley, Virginia – working in cahoots with deeply entrenched ‘sleeper’ agents masquerading as ‘senior editors and writers’ in the said publications.
Absolutely no doubt whatsoever. In fact, this one of the very very few things about the way of the world of which I am certain, such is how my sense of observation and perception is being overloaded.
You know the score, ‘China is doomed’, ‘China is finished’,’Evergrande’,’China desperately needs political reform’ … And my all time favorite, no doubt composed by some worthless little cunt who thinks himself ‘clever’ ‘China is going to get old before it gets rich’.
If claims of Uyghur oppression are just American lying propaganda, then how come that the same humanitarian groups that boldly defy the US and denounce Israel for its genocide, also denounce the oppression of the Uyghurs?
Is Amnesty International controlled by the US?
Anyhow it’s a fact that millions of Uyghurs have been in internment camps. Supposedly this is justified by the threat of Uyghur terrorism, which is small potatoes, similar in size to the political terrorism we had here in Italy in the 70s. How come here in Italy we were able to defeat terrorism without putting millions of random people in camps.
Thanks for the excellent article. Despite Trump/Musk mostly theatrical efforts – since taking office – apparently doing house cleaning directed at a corrupt governing system, immigration etc. they will end up causing more economic, social damages in the future. The biggest issue for the US currently is the historic stranglehold Jewish bankers have around America’s financial neck. It’s impossible to do any kind of house cleaning which might ever make USA becoming competitive again vis a vis China and others as long as the US federal Reserve is still controlled by Jews under the old illuminati scheme. China’s foremost advantage is basically the fact that it’s free from the disease unlike the US and its client states.
The attempt to attach Canada, Mexico and Greenland to the US, and forcing NATO members into a 5% broad militarization of their economies, while seeking to detach the US economy from its dependence on Asia, is demonstrably indicative of preparing for a prolonged economic war of attrition with Russia, and more broadly with the China-India-Russia (CIR) complex. The risk of such plan is its tacit assumption that the CIR will reciprocate with the same economic slapstick, rather than with the classic crash and bur, as the cornered rats usually do.
Maybe but maybe not. Long-lasting empires don’t necessarily create or forge ethnic unity.
Ottomans ruled over Greeks, parts of Balkans, Arabs, Armenians, and etc, but the various groups remained distinct from one another.
It’s been said, following the fall of Western Rome, the Eastern Empire, aka Byzantine, lasted for another 1000 yrs, and within it, the various groups considered themselves ‘Roman’, but the identity must have been superficial as the empire was wracked by endless ethnic strife that also fueled court intrigue. So, despite having avoided the fate of Western Rome, it also failed ultimately to create a unified identity in the long run.
Granted, Han China had one advantage in being threatened only from one direction, the northern Mongol barbarians, where the Western and Eastern Rome faced challenges from all sides.
Still, the fact that the Mongols remained ethnically distinct suggests Han Chinese-ness wasn’t always catching. And Manchus, like the Koreans and Vietnamese, might also have remained distinct from Han Chinese had they not invaded China proper and got absorbed into it.
Sometimes, a religion brings people together but shared Christianity didn’t unite the Germans, Italians, and Poles. Shared Orthodox faith didn’t unite all the Slavic peoples.
Much of the Middle East was different in that they came to share not only the same religion, Islam, but the same language, Arabic. Islam and Arabic spread together as the true meaning of Koran was said to be conveyed only in Arabic. There was a similar idea once in the West when Catholicism once prioritized Latin as a sacred language; and had all of Europe been Latin-ized linguistically, maybe that might have done the trick of unifying Europe the way the Arab world was unified via blend of religion and language.
The importance of language as unifier is visible in Latin America though more from the American perspective that regards as ‘Hispanic’ anyone from Latin America who speaks Spanish regardless of race, creed, or color.
Like the Arabs from North Africa to the borders of Persia, Han Chinese came to share a same language, at least the written kind. Language seems crucial, more than Confucianism as other civilizations like Vietnam, Korea, and Japan adopted Confucianism or aspects of it but remained distinct from the Chinese in language.
Unlike the Arabs, Han Chinese are unified linguistically and racially whereas the Arabs, like ‘Latin Americans’, come in various colors, with some being white like Europeans(esp in Syria and Lebanon) while others are pretty dark, even black(like in parts of Sudan).
The fact that the Turks, Arabs, Kurds, Uzbeks, and Persians(not to mention Pakistanis and Indonesians) all remain distinct despite shared Islam suggests religion is quite the unifier as language is.
It seems Jihadi terrorism is the one thing that brings Muslims of various stripes together; it’s their counterpart to the Crusades that united various Europeans in missions to regain the Holy Land.
Han China seems more than ethnic however. It’s also civilizational in the way that Bantu isn’t in Africa. Bantu is the dominant ‘ethnic’ group in Africa but there’s no Bantu unity comparable to Han unity. But then, unity is a difficult concept in the Dark Continent. Maybe Han ideas will take hold among Bantus, something like Hantu, and then Africa will come together into a giant civilization.
This largely depends on how one defines communism. Even when China was communist in the Maoist mold, classic Marxists would have argued that true communism must follow capitalism, i.e. communism is the dialectical product of capitalist contradictions. Marx never meant communism to be a blueprint for building an industrial society; he meant it as a post-capitalist blueprint. Capitalism would destroy itself with internal contradictions, and communism would inherit the productive capacity produced by capitalism(that Marx considered the most transformative and revolutionary force in history).
Because Russia and China used communism as a developmental model, classic Marxists always had problem with Leninism-Stalinism as heresies. Still, Russia was semi-industrial whereas China that Mao inherited was still mostly agrarian, making communism there even more odd.
Also, even though communism was said to be scientific-materialist, it turned into a spiritualist credo. Partly, it was because of its appeal to certain parts of the Third World. Hopelessly behind economically and industrially to the advanced capitalist West, communism was seen as a puritanical spartan ideology that could bind people together in hope of liberation and progress. Thus, Che Guevara spoke of moral incentives as opposed to material incentives. Just like some Christian sects regarded poverty as a kind of virtue(than mere squalor), many communists accepted the frugal and spartan life as more moral, less corrupting, and cleansing. It’s like Diane Keaton’s character in the end of REDS, despite the hardships, finds meaning in being a ‘comrade’.
Especially as the communist world lost the material competition with the capitalist West, there was a need for moral, even spiritual, rationalization of the relative backwardness or scarcity. One argument went that the Soviet sphere was less prosperous because it aided the Third World than exploited it like the capitalist West that lived on the hog on the backs of others.
Or, it was said that even though communist countries had less, they were more easy-going than dog-eat-dog capitalist world of endless competition and ‘creative destruction’.
The Great Leap Forward that left China in shambles destroyed the illusion that Maoist economics could make China catch up to the UK, US, or even the Soviet Union. It was such a fiasco that Mao retreated to the role of nominal leader while the real managers became Liu Shao-chi and Deng Xiaoping. Even though Liu and Deng hardly embarked on capitalism, they were more pragmatic and allowed some ‘market’ measures, which brought China out of deep depression.
Having lost the material argument to Liu and Deng, the sour and vindictive Mao embarked on the ‘spiritual’ inquisition of Cultural Revolution to purge the ‘capitalist roaders’.
Thus, Mao unleashed another kind of hell on China.
Mao’s material effort in the Great Leap and his spiritual effort in the Cultural Revolution were both destructive to the max.
Still, when something is spiritualized, it can survive in modified forms, and China could be said to be ‘communist’ today in that sense.
It’s like the idea of Christian Europe. There was a time when Europe took the faith very seriously, purging heretics, burning witches, waging wars over sectarian differences, and etc. But eventually, Europe emerged from the Medieval theocratic mindset and created institutions and powers that were largely independent of religious authority, especially with the emergence of Protestantism that said NO to the Vatican. Yet, despite the abandonment of theocratic modes of rule, Europe remained Christian in the spiritual sense.
Same could be said of China. Even though communist economics is out, communism as a spiritual idea is still around(and may have gotten some boost under Xi), especially as some leaders are sensing that material fixations alone cannot hold together a civilization. There has to be national, spiritual, and moral themes. Otherwise, civilization turns soulless like Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea, and even much of cosmopolitan China. Such moral vacuum has a hollowing out effect. Also, such vacuum seeks to be filled with foreign ideas as the nation is unable to generate its own values.
Even though Medievalism didn’t do much for Europe, which really took off with the pagan revival of Renaissance, Europe still kept Christianity alive as a spiritual guiding light. And Chinese leadership may be attempting to doing the same with the Mao myth. Mao as theocracy was truly horrifying, but Mao as the national myth of ‘Chinese people finally standing up’ has resonance, especially now.
When China was backward and poor under Mao, the East Asian ‘tigers’ seemed the big winners under US umbrella and tutelage. But back then, the US was still a sane and relatively responsible country. But today, the US is a nutjob country and its insanity is taking down its vassals with it — Ukraine for example.
In this context, the East Asians tigers and Japan seem helpless as they lack autonomy to say NO to Uncle Sam. In contrast, despite all the hell unleashed by Mao, his one big achievement was to build a political system from ground up that was wholly independent of the West(and even the Soviets following the rift with Khrushchev). Something similar can be said of Vietnam. It suffered much under communist economics, but unlike the East Asian Tigers and Japan, its political system was created fully independent of imperial forces. Thus, Mao and Ho did achieve something long-lasting in their countries, whereas Japan and East Asian tigers are political pets of the US, with their ‘right’ taking orders from the Pentagon and their ‘left’ aping every silliness coming out of ‘woke’ Ivy League.
Marx spoke of dialectics in terms of class, that history is a series of contradictions between classes, finally to be resolved when a classless society emerges from the ashes of capitalism.
Marx contended that material world determines ideas, not the other way around.
But ideas do matter, and the fact that communism came to non- or pre-capitalist countries belies Marx’s theories.
Mao hated Confucianism because he associated it with China’s weakness. While other countries were aggressive, adventurous, and bold, China had supposedly grown weak because of its effete, pompous, and snobby class of literary scholars. They grew their fingernails long and disdained physical labor.
Mao’s definition of revolution was a veiled attack on Confucianism. DUCK YOU SUCKER opens with a Mao quotation about the nature of revolution.
Mao also said ‘political power grows out of the barrel of a gun’. Mao’s hatred also stemmed from his peasant background and experience of being snubbed by kids from more privileged classes.
Confucianism had done much good for China, but in Mao’s time, many agreed that it had made China weak and wussy, unable to fend off the more martial cultures of Europe and Japan, a nation of ‘dwarfs’ but kicking Chinese butt left and right. As people like Mao associated capitalism with imperialism and since Bolshevik Russia, once a predatory empire on the Chinese carcass, pledged moral support against imperialism, many young Chinese turned to communism.
Communism would fill Chinese with martial spirit, and there must be something in communism in forging the will to fight. Though Chinese communists were outmanned by the KMT, they won. And would the Vietnamese have prevailed against the US without communism? Communism is repressive but also inspiring and unifying as ideology and vision of better future.
So, communism filled the gaps left by Confucianism, but its excesses created gaps of its own. Also, even though capitalism did wonders for Chinese economy, it offered little in terms of moral compass or spiritual meaning. There was an effort by the West to spread Christianity in China, and for a time, there were many news stories of how Christianity is the fastest spreading faith in China. But such influence is probably a vestige of the fading America that was Christian. Today’s US is more eager to spread globohomo and such, but China isn’t biting. Also, CCP has long been suspicious of Christianity as an imperialist idea. Granted, communism is also a foreign idea, but it was sold as an idea for all of humanity, brotherhood of man thing, against oppression of any kind, rather ironic given its own oppressions.
There’s been this dialectic in Chinese thinking between the foreign and national. For too long, China felt it was the center of the world and didn’t need anything foreign. But then, the century of humiliation convinced Mao and others that Chinese tradition had held the country back and Confucianism and such ‘old ideas’ had to be rooted out. This was akin to the radical stage of Christianity when it smashed every pagan temple and idol it could get their hands on.
But just like Europe arrived at a synthesis of Christianity and Paganism n the Renaissance, China under Xi might be arriving at a kind of synthesis or equilibrium between the foreign and national/traditional, and between communism(as a spiritual force as an ideology of justice for the people) and capitalism(as pragmatism of productivity and competition).
Thus, if Confucianism had once foolishly rejected everything foreign and if Maoism/communism had foolishly rejected Chinese tradition altogether, the current thing may be to finally appreciate both ideas in the historical context and interweave them together into something richer and more complex.
Zhou En-Lai is held in high regard in China. Deng must be too, but what about Liu Shao-chi, to whom Deng was the right-hand man? Liu was rehabilitated under Deng, but it’s a touchy subject because he died(or was effectively killed) under Mao. At any rate, China is now more Shao than Mao at least in practical matters.
The shilling for China on this site is becoming awkward. It is one thing to oppose your government because of its malfeasance, it’s wholly another to behave like a fifth column promoting a foreign country.
Then there’s this piece of China apologetic:
Perhaps a “National-Socialist” one. That would explain the shilling.
Reminds of the lighthouse vs. the aircraft carrier urban legend. Given who’s at the helm, not sure that the carrier would stop if the situation really arises.
Why are we ignoring the elephant in the room?
American whites are now in the minority of births. China has a homogenous population of well over 1 billion 104IQ Han.
Game over.
it’s only too natural to cheer on the underdog. against all odds, he manages to get his act together and stands up to the preening bully who has been terrorizing the neighborhood. the only problem is that the little fluffy adorable cat in time might turn into a terrifying tiger ready to fight at the drop of a hat. man’s fortunes may change, but his nature remains the same.
in the American war of independence, the people who sided with the British became loyalists and moved to Canada. they live to this day peacefully trading and cooperating with the U.S. they are generally regarded as little brothers or distant cousins, more of a curiosity than a headache. China needs to treat Taiwan in the same manner instead of giving the Empire an excuse to start the Apocalypse.
if they are bent on waging war come hell or high water, they will always find some pretext. just don’t make it easy by constantly brooding over tiny Taiwan. the island needs the mainland more than the other way around. live and let live, for tomorrow is another day that may bring new opportunities for a peaceful resolution.
it’s sad to hear a smart intellectual like Unz talk about the so called dark ages as if it were conventional truth. on the contrary, that was a time when men really searched for the Ultimate Truth and tried to live accordingly. yes, there were some excesses and weird superstitions, but please, let us not miss the forest for the woods. now that China has won the existential war of survival against economic depredations, she will soon come face to face with the eternal wisdom that man does not live by bread alone. that man is supremely above the brutes, that he has needs that can never be fulfilled by physical/material things alone. may the Almighty God shine His eternal light upon the Chinese people, Amen.
This is an excellent and informative article. The Thucydides Trap, the US will go to war to halt the rise of China. One US think tank said the US will fight China by using a remote naval blockade, far away from Chinese missiles. This means the US will go to war with China before the Chinese navy becomes too strong.
Both the US and China use a managed capitalism, but China forces their companies to act only in Chinese national interests. The Chinese economic system is superior to the US MBA managed and damaged economic system. China graduates 600,000 engineers per year, the US about 120,000 per year and only about one fourth of US engineering graduates end up doing engineering work. So we can see where this is headed.
Confucius isn’t very important. He only codified whats natural.
Lao tzu is who you should have written about.
But thats way over your head lol.
I agree, but the explanation is simple: private-owned companies face *intra-national* competition, but when the competition in *international* it makes more sense to have a state-owned company, because the state works as a company in this situation.
(In a side note, corporations are always non-democratic; therein lies the fallacy of capitalist democracy: everyone is free, and have a voice, *except in the work environment, which is where most people spend most of their lives*.)
In the article’s following paragraphs the author is simply confused:
That is highly doubtful! Private enterprise simply cannot compete against the State!
But then Unz goes on to list only private companies, rendering this theoretical confusion irrelevant. It would be simpler to state that intra-national competition sometimes must be sacrificed in favor of international competition.
Ron Unz must also free himself of his ideological constraints.
Your sources of information (Washington Post, Forbes and Financial Express) said more about your ideological leanings than the subject of DeepSeek. Any papers that were cheering WMD and similar trash cannot be trusted.
[Republishing long, totally off-topic articles as comments is bad behavior and will get trashed. If you continue doing that, your commenting will be sharply restricted. Maybe you would be happier on an different website.]
You are right, Chinese people are loving, friendly, outgoing positive people. On the other hand, America is full of negative toxic, depressive, people full of negative personality disorders. I think that the progress of a nation is really rooted in the minds of their people, in their behaviour patterns. Russians, Cubans, Spain people, Italians, the French, palestinians, muslims are also nice people
I live in Knoxville, and i can tell you by personal observation that the great majority of people of Memphis are very evil, i really dont know why
I am not racist i love black people a lot, but in Memphis a black evil person killed a white girl who was running, exercising, Eliza Fletcher, how sad. That city is full of toxicity, negative people
Maybe the anti-china attitude of USA is not racist at all, I think it is economic related
And by the way, the USA is doomed with anti-politics population.
i am from Knoxville, and the majority of people of this city who are white, are so dull, cold, and anti-politics. They live a life super far away from politics, from news and reality. A sort of hedonic life, maybe because of the neoliberal economic capitalist model forces them to work so much, so many hours a day, and then to come home to do domestic chores like cooking etc. All that leads to physical tiredness.
And physical tiredness in the general population of USA might be the real cause of why most americans are so far away from news, and from political activism
Its really embarrassing how much you can, not quite get wrong, but just be irrelevant.
There are really only two systems for you to consider when describing why China has already won.
Lao tsu’s “Way” and the board game “weiqi”
Go kiss Deepseek’s ass and he’ll write you a great essay about it. But you need to kiss that ass and humble yourself first.
Confucius is irrelevant.
AI is cringe. Ron Unz is a paranoid schizophrenic. We would nuke the shit out of those bug chinks. Seethe.
How have you been able to verify to be a fact?
Have you lived and walked amongst the Uighurs in Xinjiang?
Or
Did you read it someplace, or watched a video or two?
I think there will have to be a war to extricate the citizens of the US from the captured government. That will not happen until at least 1/3 of the citizens are as fervent in their resolve, as in the 1776 Revolution that made us the USA. Thinking a bit is not getting it done.
Not really.
China has been plagued by repeated invasions. Mongols, Manchus, Khitans, Tanguts, Tibetans, Japanese etc. One need not mention the Europeans and USA of course.
The Tibetan Empire took chunks out of China when it was weak. Yes, you read that right….Tibetan Empire. Tibet wasn’t always the “peaceful land of non-violent monks” that Western media makes it out to be.
The Japanese too attempted invasion of China 3 times. Twice unsuccessfully, and once partially successfully. And for hundreds of years raided and plagued the Chinese coast. Okinawa/Ryukyu was a tiny independent Kingdom that traded with China for hundreds of years until the Japanese decided to annex it in the 1800s.
The notion of a hot US-China war is doubtful. But who can really say? With the exception of the American war against Southern cessation, the US has rarely fought a technologically equal army–at least on its own. Both World Wars were joint efforts. And in the Ukraine, which will soon be lost, America uses a proxy.
Below is a list one can use, in order to judge whether the US has what it takes to take on China, half way around the globe.
Korea. Fighting against both Korean and Chinese forces, the US was unable (or unwilling) to declare victory.
Same with Vietnam.
8 days in Grenada. After losing 19 soldiers and 9 helicopters, the US declared victory. So that Caribbean Powerhouse was wrapped up pretty quickly. A Big W for America.
In ’88, the US invaded Panama, resulting in 23 Americans killed (2 of those by ‘friendly fire’). Manuel Noriega was however made to pay for those lives, with US forces subjecting him to an unceasing 24/7 media barrage consisting of KC and the Sunshine Band followed up by the shock and awe of GNR (pre Buckethead). All loud enough to make the dictator wish for what would later become known as the ‘Gaddafi Solution’.
Speaking of, in 2011 Hillary came (might have been the first time), saw and then killed Libya’s leader. A couple of US airplanes were taken out by mechanical failure, but otherwise it was a roll over. Another big W for America.
Iraq (a coalition action) saw the Iraqi army more or less quit, after leaving almost 8000 US soldiers and civilian contractors dead. So there you have it.
In Yugoslavia, in addition to taking out a Chinese Embassy, Slobodan Milosovic was captured. Later this ‘Next Hitler’ ™ was found dead in his prison cell. Hard to argue that anytime a ‘Next Hitler’ is murdered in his prison cell, that it’s not another win for America.
Flipping the record over, an attempted 20 year occupation of Afghanistan left about 6000 US soldiers and contractors dead. With a retreat that made Rooftop in Vietnam look pretty organized and heroic, it’s now mostly forgotten.
Most recently the US has been duking it out with World Power Houthis. No clear winner is in sight.
And just last week a US Army helicopter took out a commercial Medivac jet. Unfortunately, both Emma and her Two Moms were lost in that operation.
So I don’t think anyone can deny that when it comes to America defeating tiny countries with tiny armies, taking out unarmed buildings, and establishing air superiority over civilian airports, the US military is not one hell of a pitbull in the dog fighting arena. China best take notice.
Wasn’t it the Chinese army’s chief of staff (or similar high rank) who in 2003 stated in a speech officially translated into English that China would lose badly if it went to war with the US in the near future back then, but that by 2022 China would be prepared to win any war with the US.
If I recall correctly, the Chinese general also pointed out in 2003 that China should be patient and allow the rapidly disintegrating US to destroy itself—to which he could have added, at the hands of the Democratic Party’s nonstop war to annihilate white America, as well as at the hands of seemingly outright traitors like the Biden family and countless others within our federal and state governments.
Is it fair to wonder whether there is even one immigrant or visa worker coming from China in the past few decades in the US today who isn’t spying for China or sleeper saboteur coming across our southern border with the connivance of the Democrats and other American-hating leftists who’ve taken over nearly all of America’s church groups? The last thing the Chinese want is a nuclear exchange contaminating our agricultural lands for ages and making it nearly impossible to repopulate the US with Han Chinese.
China was economically bubble.
Its peak was in 2020.
Then there occurred CONvid-19.
China did harsh lockdown measures.
Then, the bubble burst.
China did economic stimulus measures with the scale of $20 trillion
in the last 2 to 3 years.
But it didn’t work at all.
The bubble was huge.
$20 trillion stimulus was too small to recover.
It must be more than $100 trillion to recover the economy.
It must be helicopter money.
If and only if this is done, then the China’s economy would soon recover.
In listening to the article, one thing in particular struck me as a uniting force in Chinese life, that being the return to Confucianism. A unifying set of beliefs make for a strong people. The US really has no such thing anymore; morality has been cast to the wind as Christianity has been perverted in large part by Marxist infiltration. China clearly has strength of purpose, morality, and strong sense of culture. Americans are adrift, and may never find their feet. Only through Balkanization may we unite those with a common purpose and belief system to go on into the future. When “superpower status” no longer matters (or meets with resounding defeat), but quality of life is demanded and acted upon with succession, the change may finally come.
Laozi’s focus was on man’s relationship with the universe. He was not interested in the intricacies of how to run a country. He would have advocated for a near Anarchic state. His teachings cannot be translated to statecraft at our present state of human development. Maybe in a thousand years it could, when we evolve to be less self serving creatures….. but not till then.
Confucius’ focus was on society and how it was organised. His main aim was to preserve order and harmony and therefore the stability and proper running of a country. The efficacy of his formulations are clear for all to see in China’s longevity as a unified polity.
Since adopting his teachings, China has seen the rise and fall of many empires….Romans, Parthians, Arabs, Ottomans, Portuguese/Spanish, Dutch, English…and now American (soon).
Geography lesson:
Hispanics come from Spain.
Spain is in western Europe.
Here is a photo of the current King of Spain, Felipe VI
Here is a photo of King Felipe with his wife and two daughters;
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-1205611575.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,top&resize=980:*
They look very “White” to me.
My neighbor lady hails from Guadalajara, MX
She has light skin and blonde hair.
One of my former customers also comes from the Mexican state of Jalisco.
His nickname is “güero,” which means “blond.”
So-called “Hispanics” with darker skin tend to be mestizos, i.e. descendants of Spaniards who mated with Native Americans. The Spaniards did not bring Spanish women along on their military expeditions. Make no mistake, the Spaniards came as conquerors (conquistadores), to subjugate and rob the natives, even if they had a Catholic priest or two along to, incidentally, whup a little religion on the Natives.
The name Juan de Oñate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_de_Oñate
is not popular among the Acoma people.
Don’t forget that military superpower that is Somalia
Or that Aryan superpower called Iran in 1980
And oh, they sure beat Laos though.
There’s definetely a pro-china bias firmly established on Unz now. Too bad. I think this delusion is driven more out of disgust for the current behavior of Western leadership than a love for China. The West is such a superior system despite it’s faults.
Where is the China counterpoint authors on Unz? Exactly.
The USA, Islands in the Pacific and Western Countries have been under attack from China for decades.
For the sake of the planet, the CCP must die.
Anyways, this is how China wages modern war.
Regarding this endless contrived Kabuki Theater war going on between the fake Jew controlled US, the fake Jew controlled Russia and the fake Jew controlled China.
Here’s a scenario on how our fake Jew masters could get rid of that pesky US Bill of Rights and return Americans to “slave at the boot” of the fake Jew status
If you control all the players in a so-called World War, then you decide who wins
There is no doubt that fake Jews have total control over the highest levels of the US government
That includes those who determine whether the US retaliates against a nuclear attack
What if the US is dragged into a war against China or Russian or both by our fake Jew overlords?
Then there is a nuclear attack on the US killing millions of Americans (unfortunately the world would cheer this after American’s complicity in the Gaza Genocide)
But the fake Jews with their finger on US nuclear trigger do a Benedict Arnold and refuse to act
Then Americans are given an ultimatum by the fake Jew controlled enemy;
Give up your rights under the US constitution especially 2nd amendment rights or the nukes keep coming.
Who you going to call?
Isn’t this a plan that would make Machiavelli proud
And Machiavelli is our fake Jewish Friend’s favorite moralist.
The US inserted itself into Asia as an Asian power by acquiring the Philippines through the Spanish-American war. FDR decided to go to war against Japan because they were warring against China which he considered to be ‘ours’. Later we supposedly ‘lost’ China through their civil war and they actually fought against us in Korea. Had FDR not been so historically short-sighted the Japanese might have been successful in setting up a new state on the continent. Japan + Manchukuo could have developed into a power in its own right and today might have been a counter-balance to China in Asia. However, the US cleared the deck for China’s development and rise.
What’s there to fight about? Some chip factories in Taiwan? Close to half the population there is in favor of unification anyway. They can’t come here and we can’t go there. Are they ‘really’ communist? Who knows, who cares. Would people feel better were it a monarchy? Are we ‘really’ democratic?
Bang on.
The start of the major tariffs against Canada, Mexico and probably extending to Europe and elsewhere later this month will undoubtedly lead to massive working class unemployment in these countries. While their class brothers and sisters in America would be facing the prospect of major upsurge in Inflation. For Trump’s main objective in doing all this is to force rival bourgeois governments to acquiesce to his America first and hyper imperialist Modus Operandi scheme of things.
Puzzled as to why no progress after ‘centralizaton’ of nation states in Europe. Early examples fail after the Europeans established borders and then proceeded to kill over them. Only after sea exploraton did Europe move the killing from local to afar.
At least it is clear which side Unz is on.
It’s easy. When I say there’s a massacre in America, do you believe me?
傻逼
AI fantasy is Dotcom 2.0 as explain in the following link by the honest know-how Americans.
Dotcom, subprime, AI, … are the end products of the American financialized economy and society. There is more to come like a downward spiral unless the Americans rise to a violent revolution to cleanse their rotten to the core elite class.
Spiritually the Americans are a Medieval dark age religious cult society, a ‘God-fearing’ morally defunct evil ‘Puritan’ cult.
Oddly, there is marriage of sorts between the USA and China. It’s akin to an older man taking the hand of a young woman. The “elder” (US) goes through a tiresome, daily interaction with a vibrant gal- China, whose desires are going every which way, at the same time can’t stop absorbing, learning and experiencing. Negotiating with the feisty and youthful is simply a task the USA is no longer up to. For example, the latest fighter jet, for us what a yawn-been there done that. Over seventy five years now the USAF managed to justify a tax funded technological edge and these advancements in performance and materiel would “trickle down” (remember that one?) into many a commercial application. So what? the current status quo goes something like this; you steal from me and I from you, ditto just as our comrades in the former USSR did too. It’s a simple case of industrial espionage or Intel agency spying as old as the hills and will continue….intellectual property rights are now subject to reverse engineering, simultaneous and identical discovery by inventors working at distinct R & D facilities and of course, lest we forget-outright theft.
Yawn again. The US has been the sheriff, along with Wyatt Erp’s gang, the Law in “Dodge City” however the reflex to draw quickly must now be surrendered to trusted allies and China will be in the mix somehow. Joined at the hip through marriage, an arrangement must be made between the old man and his gal.
As I’ve previously commented, our reinstated President does have a touch of savage (the visible kind) built into his constitution and it serves as a warning to friend and foe alike, not to mess with him too much. He is a descendant of the Wild West’s ilk, settler folk, mover-and-shaker class of American. Diplomats worldwide, understand that he is not faking a disposition as Nixon tried to do with his “Madman Theory”. They know, or soon will, that our returning POTUS is the real thing and has more than two jewels between his legs. I know he’s dangerous but strangely enough, I like it. Serendipity allowed him back into office and serendipity will remain there for the next four years. Again, America is en route for that legendary O.K. Corral confrontation or what is now understood as The Thucydides Trap. China, India, Russia and Indonesia rising and the USD in free fall. Debts we can’t pay, obligations we can’t meet. A big Navy and seven hundred military bases across the world. I can only hope that Prez Trump will make that deal he’s so good at, thereby looking the other way when China insists on their Navy lording over the protection of Chinese cargo across the Asian Pacific, Taiwan and Malacca Straits. This will entail permitting Chinese AFB’s for extended protection for all their surface vessels. Perhaps a deal can be drawn in exchange for a return to a US presence in Panama sweetened with an offer resume buying our treasury bonds again? Dunno. We must protect at all costs, Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, The Philippines and Australia from any maritime intimidation(s). Tall order.
The only hope for Taiwan rests with Xi. He has a position on the world stage influential enough to bring Cuba into the limelight. For example; if the USA agrees to permit a geopolitical and even, philosophical tabula rasa for Cuba, i.e., no prisoner exchanges, no covert or overt attempts at political change, lift all sanctions including visa restrictions and or residency requirements, then China in turn will do the same for Taiwan. In short recreate a global recognition by treaty, by UN recognition, that acknowledges both islands as “City States” in the same context that the UN accepted Hong Kong and now the Vatican. The language of this treaty would forbid any introduction of weaponry or domestic policy that disrupts the current balance of power by land sea or air.
ASIDE: I’m NOT suggesting that a flood of Cuban physicians swarm into the USA, the AMA and unionized labor would have a fit! Professional certifications for US to Cuba or Cuba to US can be worked out in treaty language. The same stipulations will put a gag order on very embarrassing documentation perhaps involving Batista, the CIA and Trafficante’s mob activities.
Common Prez! roll the dice with Xi, invite him for a tour of Disneyland, Hollywood and Las Vegas. Let him get the feel for America’s persistent desire and it’s bizarre quest to somehow mold chaos back into geopolitical stasis. This is twisted thinking alright but it’s there and buried deep into our MIC culture. The world must learn to accept these “national peccadilloes” because the MIC in America, is aside from our medicine/insurance rackets, are all that remains of an upper middle class, and therein lies great political influence and power.
Aug 26, 2015 How the West Re-colonized China
The “Chinese dragon” of the last two decades may be faltering but it is still hailed by many as an economic miracle. Far from a great advance for Chinese workers, however, it is the direct result of a consolidation of power in the hands of a small clique of powerful families, families that have actively collaborated with Western financial oligarchs.
Jul 17, 2024 NATO Is Gunning For China
NATO is worried about nuclear war with both China and Russia. This NATO expansion of concerns will have a major impact on the rest of the decade.
In this great short video, economist Richard Wolff explains why the US economy is stagnate while China’s is booming. He warns that ours will soon become much worse because of greedy and delusional American leadership.
I meant in pre-modern China and also the existential kind of treat, not mere skirmishes.
In premodern China, only the Northern barbarians posed an existential threat, so much so that China built those great walls.
LOL America hasn’t won a war since August 1945. America loses wars. Why should a war with China be any different?
Why is information stored in China not safe, but information stored in the USA, India, EU, etc. is safe? Particularly since the USA, India, and EU are known data abusers.
The West including India never had an interest in knowing China, all they were looking for was materials to make their democratization of China convincing.
DeepSeek has no interest in playing the Americans and their lackeys’ retarded and destructive zero-sum, beggar-thy-neighbour, and the-dog-in-the-mange propaganda game. Therefore DeepSeek stops feeding the West’s toxic propaganda machinery. People should appreciate that DeepSeek puts the well-being of humanity ahead of hubris like the Americans.
On the other hand. the Americans and their lackeys AIs will feed you toxic misinformation relentlessly to mentally colonize you into a cult follower of their “democracy and freedom” cult, so they can enslave and abuse you without resistance.
DeepSeek is make-no-harm first, while the Americans are beggar-thy-neighbour by default. The host of the video is a near AI and he cannot make the distinction between DeepSeek and Western AIs based on the conscience.
Simply because if the data is in Europe, in the USA, UK, other 5 Eyes or Nato ally country, american and british can spy everything in the data and traffic, but if its not there, they cant spy all the data. Thats the real reason why they want access to everything and want people to use technology with built-in Nato and Israel backdoors. Technology developed and built in Nato countries and Israel is very unsafe, because they have intentionally built them full of backdoors, which also means that not just Nato and Israel, but everybody else can also use the same backdoors.
If you use chinese, russian or belarussian technology, often Nato and Israel have much harder time spying on you and your data or traffic.
The Europeans, in the continent and abroad, had that unity. It was called Christendom. Now the religion might have come out of the East with everything else but it was the unifying element. A Spaniard, an Englishmen, a Prussian, an American had their differences, but they were Christian. It was the greatest civilization ever visited on the Earth and glorious while it lasted. We know who set about betraying it and why.
China has a state capitalist economy and an authoritarian political structure. They are welcome to them. Meanwhile, we should concentrate on rebuilding our productive economy and ditching the militarism rather than promoting conflict. Do that and we and the Chinese will get along just fine.
The three examples presented to justify such an approach (steel production under different pollution and wage standards, diversity coaches who hire each other, and families taking care of each other’s kids) are unrealistic and not convincing. The purpose of using nominal GDP is simply to capture the totality of a region’s economic net production – regardless how useful selected aspects may subjectively be regarded – at a particular point in time because this generates income, hence tax revenue, and usually contributes to the pension system and overall lifestyle quality. More importantly, the nominal GDP is a better measure for a country’s clout in the international trading arena. Since exports and imports are now such an important factor in most country’s economies, using this measure is more useful.
If the potential for manipulation is a concern, then one need merely look at the elaborate methodology utilized in distorting the nominal GDP figures by factoring in the various baskets of goods and services, obviously with different quality levels in various countries, as is hinted at by the descriptions in the following link. The potential for manipulation is inherent in the process.
OECD
Purchasing Power Parities – Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)
https://www.oecd.org/en/data/insights/data-explainers/2024/06/purchasing-power-parities---frequently-asked-questions-faqs.html
According to Wikipedia, PPP was useful to determine poverty rate thresholds. This was during a time when poverty was more ubiquitous in developing countries and currencies were not easily to convert, due to government restrictions. In a thread about this topic I have recently pointed out that one cannot really equate some specific service (hotel) in different regions, like Switzerland and Swaziland, as would be done according top the PPP method. Many other types of comparisons are also inappropriate, due to differences in habits and customs, or product quality, such as sulfur content in gasoline. And never mind about such concepts as “quality of life”. Trying to account for such differences becomes unwieldy.
The currency conversion rate implied by a PPP comparison with regard only to domestic consumption tends to be different from the prevailing market rate, though the latter rate determines the terms of international trade and what people from different countries have to pay for the same vacation in desirable locations abroad. It was once thought that determining such differentials might assist currency traders in making money by exploiting perceived rate discrepancies, but obviously the phenomenon of differences between nominal GDP and PPP continues to persist, even under more sophisticated electronic exchanges than those from decades ago. In Point #3 at the link above this purpose is described as “not recommended” in the red box
Basically, those who want to make a particular country appear to look better in an international comparison of overall economic activity than is indicated by its more straightforward nominal GDP value, will harp on the contrived PPP data as their holy grail to serve their agenda. At this web site it tends to be the promotors and glorifiers of two distinctly fascist countries, China and Russia, who resort to this tactic. In the first case China lags behind the USA, in the second case Russia does not even appear among the top ten countries.
This claim is contradicted by the following article at Investopedia, in which “Real GDP” is presented as merely the nominal GDP adjusted for inflation, so as to allow for useful comparisons over a period of time. Purchasing power parity does not factor into this concept at all.
Investopedia
Real GDP vs. Nominal GDP: Which Is a Better Indicator?
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/030515/real-gdp-better-index-economic-performance-gdp.asp
It’s easy to note how tightly the Western Media, especially the American Mainstream Media (MSM) dovetails with the Zio Neocons running US Foreign Policy. Not a coincidence that both the Zio Neocons and the small group of Billionaires that own the MSM are of the same ‘ethnic’ group. This is NOT antisemitic to point this out; it’s simple, straightforward FACT. Another reason for the anti China bias is because China’s economic growth is a result of Economic principles completely at odds with the pure BS, pure Propaganda Neoliberal Economists have been mouthing as being true. Neo Liberal economic principles are a Big Lie; Neo liberal economics are about Class Warfare: making the Rich even richer while destroying the US Middle Class.
A lot of bots and dumbass rednecks on this comment thread. Or bots or Hasbara pretending to be dumbass rednecks.
“For more than 35 years the American media has annually denounced the Chinese government for its supposed 1989 massacre of protesting students at Tiananmen Square, but there seems overwhelming evidence that incident never happened, and was just a Western propaganda-hoax, endlessly repeated by our media”.
Who cares if it’s true? The point is that an overwhelming majority of Americans and other Westerners believe it. And every time the media repeat it they drive that belief home further.
“… our biased, lazy, or ignorant journalists have never paid any attention and for decades continued to promote the myth of the Tiananmen Square Massacre”.
To be fair, they don’t het paid for finding out the truth and publishing it. They get paid for writing up the establishment propaganda line – which they do effectively.
amen brother, thanks.
IMHO the only way there will be a war between the US and China is if one side were to develop a radical new weapon system that would lay waste to the opposing side completely and instantly. there can be no other way, otherwise it’s glow in the dark time for everyone. the leadership of both countries know this. hopefully one side or the other doesn’t gain that capability and the will to use it. god help us all.
On a tangential note, I often ponder on how world history would have spun if Muslim invaders had been successful at the battle of Tours in the 8th century, and subsequently the whole of Europe had been conquered for Islam.
I can’t help thinking that if this victory and conquest had happened, Islam from then until now would have been almost exclusively run by white men. White men would have been the leading scholars, sultans etc and leaders of Islam, and another notion of which I am certain is that white men would have ensured that the entire population of the world would be Muslims and every single trace, vestige and memory of all alternate belief systems would be thoroughly eradicated and expunged from human consciousness. Thus the mission of Islam since the time of the Prophet would have been fulfilled. The present truth is that Islam has been and is a failure since the conversion of the entire planet never occurred and likely never will occur.
The Muslims then – and now! – absolutely understood this, hence the repeated and persistent attempts to get the white man onboard, alas, all inroads were marginal, to say the least.
The irony is that the white man now is effectively finished, and to all attempts and purposes will be gone in a century’s time, but Islam, by then will be too enervated to take on the planet – and win.
What lead me to this train of thought? – Seeing the ‘rapper’ Kanye West parading his fully nude missus at the Grammy Awards yesterday.
One cannot help thinking that Islam is entirely right about women.
ouch
Going off on another tangent, the, UK which, unfortunately host The Economist magazine on its soil, in much the same way a pig hosts tapeworms, is, of course, the loudest ranter against China. Take it from me that The Economist is fully infiltrated at the editorial level by state actors hostile to China.
Be that as it may, UK TV news was full of reports of shoplifting reaching appalling, epidemic levels in the UK. And indeed, this is true. A typical indication of this is that one seldom sees a blister pack of packaged goods on sale at a dime store that hasn’t been robbed of its contents. In the UK even the ‘pound shop’ is patrolled by security guards.
The truth is that the UK, remember the home of The Economist which forever is blasting the foetid flatulence of its unwanted and unwelcome ‘advice’ in the face of China *has not had ANY economic growth in eighteen years*. Add this to the fact that the UK is a vastly vastly highly unequal society, with certainly the greatest wealth inequality of any developed nation. There are literally million upon millions upon millions of the most wretched miserable paupers in the UK who have taken to shoplifting simply to survive in this era of rising bills and uncontrolled immigration, which has set to only lower wages beneath what is needed to survive and pushed rent, often for quite frankly cold damp and decrepit shit accomodation, to unaffordability. The miserable proletariat of the UK is enormous. I wager that in a few years the self service retail model will not survive in the UK due to ‘stock shrinkage’.
England is going back to it’s Dickensian roots.
That table above showed Turkey well above the UK in real output per head. That I do not doubt for a minute.
I stopped listening after 5 or so minutes when regulation was being touted as a blessing instead of the curse on industry that it has become. In 2011 the Phoenix Center for the Advanced Study for Legal and Economic Policy produced a study on the ruinous effects of excessive regulation on American industry, quoted in https://mises.org/mises-wire/cost-government-regulator
No country can survive such regulation on top of the voracious parasites making up FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate, plus rental and leasing) consuming something like three times the entire output of all American manufacturing put together, and that’s without adding in money flowing to lawyers. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/release/tables?rid=331&eid=1993
Ron Unz wrote that like
“There was not that Tiananmen Square Massacre”.
Do you believe it ?
Cabal are good at deceit.
Cabal fabricate holocaust.
Cabal’s creation CCP honest ?
(Cabal:
Kazar+Druids+Knights Templar)
Aren’t we all glad the US braintrust listened to the sage advice of The Wall Strret Journal and University of Chicago and went ahead and offshored our manufacturing capability to China in theblate 1980s and early 1990s? That Most Favored Nation trade status George Bush the Elder was so proud of bestowing on the Chinese looks so prescient in hindsight doesn’t it? “That’ll teach our unions” we were told. The Boomers got cheap stuff from Walmart for 30 years at 50% the price they would have paid, and we got a large drug-addled permanently unemployed class of dead weight that would have in past generations be gainfully employed in factories all over America. There are over 100 factory jobs in China, and only 14 million here. Our top 1% got super-rich, and our populace lost it’s patriotism and self-respect. A portion of our populace became green-haired weirdos who resent normality itself.
They will never admit it was a mistake.
Extraordinary, this is the first time I heard a Westerner talk about the essence of the Chinese revolution, even about the Communist Party of China, a nationalist movement that sees Communism as the best means to achieve the rejuvenation of Chinese civilization.
The Westerners cannot see China as Vladimir Brovkin because it will destroy their identity as civilized, fair, and gender people that they have spent so much energy fabricating since Columbus set sail out of the Mediterranean Sea. Otherwise the Westerners suddenly find themselves they have not changed a bit from their barbarian forebears who destroyed the Roman Empire, they are still the same warmongering medieval dark-age people with a different suit.
China still keeps communism most likely it matches the ideal of common prosperity, or for the people, by the people, of the people.
Never underestimate the wickedness, recklessness, and stupidity of the American ‘God-fearing’ morally defunct evil ‘Puritan’ cult madness.
Please do not drag China into American insanity to whitewash America’s war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes against peace.
China has been persuading the Americans with win-win peaceful coexistence in the last 50 years.
Thanks for this article, Mr. Unz.
Some comments:
I would add that the longetivity and continuity of China as a 2,246-year-old State and 5,000-year Civilization can be attributed to China’s system of political meritocracy which consists of selecting a highly-educated political class of Confucianist Scholar-Officials based on competitive examinations. The Chinese Civil Service which was founded during the Han Dynasty would continue to function as the political administration of the Chinese State and the cultural authority on Chinese Civilization even under foreign rule such as the during the Mongol Yuan and Manchu Qing Dynasties or during intermittent periods of political disunity.
By contrast, the English Civil Service which consists of selecting a highly-educated political class of administrative officials based on competitive examinations was founded only in 1855. Likewise, the Indian Civil Service which served as the political administration of the British Raj was founded only in 1861, following the demise of the East India Company in 1858. Indeed, what was good about the British Raj was the Indian Civil Service which ran Indian affairs much more competently than the East Indian Company.
There is a popular misconception in the West that every business in China is owned and controlled by the State. Such an viewpoint contradicts common sense as street vendors, family-owned businesses and mom-and-pop shops that abound in China can’t possibly be all owned and controlled by the State. As it turns out, China has a very high rate of entrepreneurship which allows massive numbers of private companies of all sizes — nano, micro, small, medium, large — in all industries except in national industries reserved for the State sector dealing with human health, public safety, homeland security, natural resources, critical infrastructure, national defense, law enforcement, higher education, cultural heritage, public transportation, environmental protection, etc. In such national industries, China has the distinct advantage of using the vast political, social, cultural and economic resources of the State to support national industries which serve the national interest, not the financial interest of private capital which seeks only short-term economic gain but not long-term national interest. An example of this phenomenon is China’s high-speed rail network which is not only the world’s largest but also the fastest, built in just 15 years. Western economists were highly critical of China’s HSR projects as wasteful expenditure due to their financial losses. But what they didn’t realize was that China’s HSR network was saving tens of billions of dollars in imported oil every year despite the transport fares being insufficient to cover the financial losses. For China to subsidize the building of its HSR network serves the national interest despite incurring financial losses from its operation. Other examples abound such as the space industry wherein China leads the world in deploying its own Chinese Space Station which is now in orbit, compared to the International Space Station which is about to be retired from service. The defense industry is another example where the State sector plays the major role in developing high-tech weapons including its recently developed six-generation fighter jets, the world’s first to be flown in public. Financial gain is not the motivation for China’s State sector to develop these high-tech technologies but serving the national interest which drives these technological achievements.
Rudd is wrong to apply Western labels to China’s political and economic system, which should be appropriately called “neo-Confucianist” based on Zhu Xi’s rationalist philosophy dating back to the Song Dynasty. As the Song Dynasty became the most mercantilist in all of China’s history, the neo-Confucianist Scholar-Officials became involved in economic affairs, thereby creating the world’s first technocratic system for the State-led management of the world’s first industrial economy, including the invention of several innovations for maritime trade such as paper currency, trade financing, shipping insurance, joint-stock enterprises, navigational aids, multi-hulled ships, canal locks, etc. This period was a historic departure from the Classic Confucianist ideal of the Scholar-Official inbued with social ethics and inculcated with political ideals in the public administration of the Imperial State but culturally aloof from economic pursuits. For the first time in China’s history since the Han Dynasty, the neo-Confucianist rationalist philosophy of Zhu Xi became the State ideology of the Song Dynasty which fostered the systemic mastery of STEM disciplines and encouraged its industrial application to technological innovations in various industries such as steel-making, porcelain-production, shipbuilding, book printing, clock-making, etc.
I think it’s time to retire obsolete labels such as “Marxist-Leninist” or “Communist” to describe Xi’s China which seeks to revive its 5,000-year-old Civilization. The Cold War is over but a new world of Civilization-States is about to begin.
fuck off i did no such thing you condescending prick. mulga’s giving hand jobs today why don’t you go get in line.
The maddening thing about the American ‘puritan’ mentality is that the puritans themselves don’t choose what to be puritanical about.
They were once ultra-religious but with the fading of faith, the mentality grasps onto whatever is presented by the elites as the latest moral panic.
Paradoxically, puritans have become most puritanical about the most puerile things, like the sanctity of ‘gay marriage’ and half-naked drag queens reading stories to children.
If Puritan mindset is New England, the Baptist mindset is prominent in the South. As different as the austere and grim puritanism is from the loud and rambunctious Baptists of the Evangelical variety, they have one thing in common. No agency.
Evangelicals also need to be told what to be all rapturous about. Take a look at Huckabee the Cuckabee. His ilk are more into ‘Muh Israel Hallelujah’ than Jesus. They really think Jesus would be signing bombs to be dropped on women and children in Gaza and laugh about it and drink beer with IDF soldiers who spit on him.
The reason many Americans say Unz is pro-China is because he writes the truth. We have been bombarded with propaganda since birth that China is evil, steals our ideas, suppresses and abuses its own citizens, and seeks to take over the world. Most people find it impossible to deprogram themselves and become angry at the truth even though they’ve never been to China and never speak to people from China. As the great Jimmy Dore reports, even the supposedly brilliant Jon Stewart promotes anti-China and anti-Russian propaganda.
They need to read, if they can, ‘Red Star Over China’ by Edgar Snow. Mao was the greatest figure of the last five hundred years, but Whitey hates to admit it, so they lie about him instead.
Before the Japanese invasion, there was a Western invasion, known as the Opium Wars (1838-42). This was the breaking point for China. The imperial structure collapsed. Only then could tiny Japan, with Western help, beat China. The US went into the opium trade across the Pacific following the British. In James Bradley, The China Mirage: The Hidden History of American Disaster in Asia, 2015, you can read about Franklin Roosevelt’s maternal grandfather Warren Delano, who made the family fortune in China through the opium trade, in the company of missionaries and with the good conscience of contributing to the salvation of Chinese souls.
On this and more generally on the reasons the West took the lead from around 1800, I recommend Jack Goldstone, Why Europe? The Rise of the West in World History, 1500-1850, 2009: it summarizes a recent change of perspective in world-system history (Andre Gunder Frank, Re-ORIENT: Global Economy in the Asian Age, 1998; Kenneth Pomeranz, The Great Divergence, 2001), which completely revisit the timing and the reasons for the West’s supremacy over the East, that is, mainly, over China. I found this absolutely fascinating. Actually, I’m pretty sure I first learned about those books here on the UR. I wonder how the Opium Wars play in the Chinese general worldview.
Seeing the US being taken over for a last fire sale by Austrian economist loons and technocratic Supermen like Peter Thiel is HILARIOUS. I was told EXACTLY how it would unravel by a Marxist political economist in the days of Thatcher and Reagan, and he got it right down to the last decimal point. Just desserts, too, for brain dead Merkans.
It must be said Indian Democracy is funnier than most comedies.
I believe that the UK’s diabolical offspring, the United Satanic Agglomeration, is more unequal still. What is remarkable in Perfidious Albion is the obsequious deference of the chavs to their Masters. That is truly AMAZING.
Isn’t this article just a re-pop of one that appeared a couple of weeks ago, with a new, current dateline?
Sure, and I think it’s widely acknowledged that the British and Prussian civil services, the first in Europe, were actually modeled after the Chinese system.
As I briefly mentioned in one of my articles a dozen years ago, there’s actually also quite a bit of evidence that all the written tests and examination systems in the world, beginning with those in Europe, ultimately derive from the Chinese examination system.
https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/
are you micro dosing today priss or wut? i think you’re looking into this a little too deeply. i’m descended from puritan stock and i think the tranny reading time losers should be put in the stockade. i’m certainly not in favor of a war with china either FFS. this place is crawling with chink influencers don’t give em any elbow room.
The failure of Islam is a stark reminder that quality > quantity. Islam’s downward trajectory was assured when the religion began to spread east instead of west. It converted central Asian savages, African primitives, and dung eating Hindus. In the west, it failed to reach/convert Europe and in the east, it failed to convert the Chinese and Japanese. With the exception of the Persians, Islam converted some pretty low quality populations.
After a thousand years, the results are exactly what you’d expect.
Unfortunately in the so-called Western liberal democracies, there are dozens of competing biblical thought guides, often contradicting one another.
Not really, though I think there’s probably 25-30% overlap in the text, mostly because I quoted the same long passages of Hua Bin’s posts.
Interesting that Paul Craig Roberts has sited Wolfe’s sidekick, Michael Hudson as today’s pre-eminent economist.
well duhhh he’s a hollywood kike for christ’s sake. know your enemy.
As explained in this short video, the emperor of China banned the importation of Opium as addiction devastated China. The British and Americans were importing vast quantities so a war began to protect their “right” to import and sell opium! Great wealth from this mass drug dealing made many Boston families wealthy and helped fund Harvard. John Kerry’s grandfather was born in China as his dad was a major drug baron, along with FDR’s Delano grandfather.
The article quotes Hua Bin as writing:
His statement is unattributed, but seems to be a mischaracterization of a Newsweek article which reported:
Xi’s Common Prosperity and poverty reduction initiative began in 2021, after those 100 million people had been lifted out of poverty. According to the World Bank, almost no people in China were lifted out of poverty between 2021 and 2024, the time period of Xi’s Common Prosperity Initiative.
More importantly, how does Xi’s achievement before 2021 – lifting 100 million people out of extreme poverty – compare to previous Chinese leaders? Ron Unz tells us himself in his article “China’s Rise, America’s Fall”:
So, the total fall in poverty, and the fall per year, was greater pre-Xi (from 1980 to 2008) than post-Xi (from 2013 to 2021).
This is consistent with every other economic indicator out of China. Economic growth from 1978 (when Deng Xiaoping became leader) to 2013 averaged 10% per year. Economic growth from 2013 (when Xi Jinping became leader) to today has averaged only half that – 5% per year. And that was not just because of COVID. In Xi’s first 6 years in power, from 2013 to 2019, growth averaged 6%. Compared to previous leaders, Xi has been the worst leader since Mao Zedong for the Chinese economy.
And it’s not hard to understand why. Mao was a communist and communism kills both people and the economy. From Deng Xiaoping to Hu Jintao, China was hyper-capitalist. Xi has been trying to find a middle way between capitalism and communism. You could call it socialism. That just doesn’t work as well, which the Chinese should have figured out from how Mao crushed people and how Deng and those before Xi uplifted people.
The English Puritans who fled Europe to America and settled in New England were weird cultists prone to psychotic delusions and bizarre behavior. That’s the only way one can explain the strange but wicked world of Sodom and Gomorrah that is America today. The Puritans originally sought to establish a holy City upon a Hill in America based on the Christian Bible but ended up building a bloody Hell on Earth in the U$A. The difference between what the Yanks preach and what they practice is like a nun who goes to mass on Sunday but works in a worehouse on weekdays. It’s quite hard to believe anything these people say because what they do contradicts everything they preach.
China was placed under US sanctions from 1989 after Tiananmen to 2000 when Clinton granted China MFN status. During that time, US multinationals had to seek approval from the US State Department if they wanted to invest in or trade with China. So, the US outsourcing trend which started in the 1970s went to Mexico and Southeast Asia but not to China. Only after China’s accession to the WTO in 2001 did the US multinationals (or their contract manufacturers) relocate their factories from Mexico and Southeast Asia to China.
George Bush Sr never did grant MFN status to China. That was Clinton in 2000. What George Bush Sr did was sign NAFTA in 1992 which formalized the maquiladoras in Mexico where US multinationals had been outsourcing their manufacturing since the 1970s.
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How will China defeat the US?
It’s navy is mostly a brown water navy with ships too small to have much range and it has few support ships to refuel them. It’s older frigates were so bad that they were either offloaded onto the coast guard or decommissioned
It’s air force is outnumbered by the US Navy, and outnumbered 2 to 1 by the US air force. It’s land forces SUCK donkey balls with inferior equipment for its troops. It’s tanks are even worse than those of Russia, its copied helicopters are inferior to Western models, its subs are noisy as hell, and it’s navy has maybe 70 planes.
Meanwhile the US can park an aircraft carrier or even a marine expeditionary forces ship at the Malacca straight and either place a platoon of marines on every ship trying to cross, insuring that their destination will not be Chinkland, or sink them if they resist boarding.
Without inbound oil, raw materials, or food, in 3 months Chinese industry grinds to halt, and in 6 months Chinklanders are starving.
You are logical, but our neocons are not sane. The same idiots who waged proxy war against Russia, feel they can wage war against China without it going nuclear. Of course they are wrong, but just listen to them. 2027 seems to be their target date.
Okay, but why was even the starving, backward China of 1950 able to drive the mighty U.S. Army out of North Korea?
Do you think that the more modern-equipped Chinese Army of 2025 would fare worse than the Chinese army of 1950 did?
China is a formidable foe. If we Americans must fight the Chinese, maybe we had better try fighting them in Panama first, where we have the geographic advantage. Underestimate at your peril.
China deserves to righteously and definitively win this monstrous global war that most analysts seem to spell out in our near futures and that the psychopathic maniacs from America and throughout the West seem to want more than life itself. The only way the crazies from Washington stand a chance of “winning” will be to blindside China with America’s entire nuclear inventory in an unexpected first strike–probably whilst the entire world is celebrating what they think has been a “universal peace treaty” agreed to by the entire global community. Think of how the Cylons betrayed humanity in the opening scenes to the television series Battlestar Galactica. That is generally how the U.S. rolls. I have been vainly waiting over the course of eighty years for those bastards to finally tell the truth, nay, to tell “A” truth. It won’t happen. Telling the truth (about anything!) would break their contract with Lucifer and his Daemons from Pandaemonium.
Both Canada and Mexico folded like wet noodles! LOL!!!!!!!!
I hope that XIt stain doesn’t though! China needs an even worse depression than it already has to get rid of him … and this will help that depression along! LOL!!!!!
I’ve lost touch with an old friend whose father was “hired” by Army Intelligence right out of Chapel Hill in the late 1930s. An Oriental Studies Major, he spoke fluent Mandarin and was sent to Shanghai after basic in 1939.
And subsequently to Mao, living with him on The Long March, as a member of the “Dixie Delegation”. My friend has signed Happy Chinese New Year cards from Mao sent to his father, who said Mao was a genius at handling people (ruthlessly, when needed) and logistics.
In 1945 he returned to the US and told Allen Dulles that he was wasting $$$ on Chiang, as Mao would triumph. He was ignored, quit and moved home to Charlotte, where he served on the City Council & was Mayor Pro Tem for a while.
So, I guess that Charlotte is/was the only city in the US where it had a council member that was also a “Hero Of The Chinese People”.
At 71, it’s evident to me that China is and will kick our a**.
It is verified that DeepSeek does some amount “piggybacking.” But there is controversy over exactly how many, and whom, they’ve distilled. I’ll provide evidence that they’ve done a lot of “piggybacking”. (I’ll focus on the “piggyback” part specifically since the budget part is something that is not controversial)
The process of “piggybacking” on other models is technically called “knowledge distillation.” It’s not unheard of for academics to do this with Open-Source AIs (https://www.ft.com/content/a0dfedd1-5255-4fa9-8ccc-1fe01de87ea6).
It is fact that Deepseek distills at least some models, because they’ve admitted and released them. DeepSeek has released distilled models of Meta’s Open-Source Llama AI, which anybody can download here: https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/machine-learning/deploy-deepseek-r1-distilled-llama-models-with-amazon-bedrock-custom-model-import/
I believe that distillation of Llama might have been against its terms, but maybe not. But Llama is also open-source, so everybody knows that there is no way to enforce a rule against distillation. Nobody will fight for such a rule, because of this. It’s against the spirit of open-source, anyways. Any person can just download Llama.
But such things are against the terms of OpenAI, which is not open-source.
There is excellent evidence that DeepSeek is largely distilling OpenAI.
1. The first is from this article. Some random guy asked DeepSeek “Are you smarter than Gemini” and DeepSeek responded by calling itself ChatGPT!!!!. It’s almost inconcievable that DeepSeek would have thought of itself as being ChatGPT unless it was distilling answers or text from ChatGPT output. The screenshot evidence is in this article: https://www.techradar.com/computing/artificial-intelligence/deepseek-just-insisted-its-chatgpt-and-i-think-thats-all-the-proof-i-need
A little while after these things were found, DeepSeek’s stopped calling itself ChatGPT. It’s likely that the develoers put in a hasty fix to stop outputting such text.
2. The second bit of evidence come from cybersecurity folks, which I won’t go into detail, but it has to do with data flows from certain accounts that seemed to be engaging in distillation. This behavior was noticed and investigated last year, before this DeepSeek news even hit the public; the investigators strongly believe that the accounts that were doing this were from DeepSeek. It’s mentioned in this article: https://www.ft.com/content/a0dfedd1-5255-4fa9-8ccc-1fe01de87ea6
3. The third bit of evidence is actually an investigation from a different AI: Originality AI! Yes, indeed! Some smart guy actually used an AI to investigate the controversy of whether DeepSeek copied ChatGPT! Originality is an AI that measures other AIs! In particular, it tries to find if different AIs are …. you guessed it, original. It can also predict if a response likely came from an AI or from a human.
This AI found that it could predict DeepSeek responses with uncanny accuracy. They have great experience looking at each new AI as they hit the public, and in the past, when they see a new AI, they have a large drop in predictive power of the AI’s responses. The fact that they could predict DeepSeek so well indicates, to them, that it is probably a distillation of other AIs that they’ve already seen. They set up the AI to predict based on ChatGPT knowledge, specifically, and they believe that they have shown decent proof of this. The report is here: https://originality.ai/blog/is-deepseek-detectable
A little explanation of how Originality did it is explained to normal folk like us in this article, which linked me to the Originality AI website: https://bgr.com/tech/ai-that-can-identify-chatgpt-generated-text-suggests-deepseek-might-be-a-copy/
I think that, just based on evidence 1), the argument that DeepSeek has copied ChatGPT is overwhelming.
I have a very different take on the DeepSeek AI breakthrough. Your conclusion is that
I would draw exactly the opposite conclusion. I’ve worked at hedge funds and with AI. The primary job of a hedge fund is prediction – namely, what is the price over the next minute or day or year in a stock price series? The primary job of an LLM is also prediction – what is the next word in a word sequence? These are essentially the same question! And they can be answered by the same algorithmic techniques! It is no surprise that the company which created DeepSeek was founded by a man who ran a hugely successful hedge fund. The DeepSeek AI was created by Liang Wenfeng, the founder of High-Flyer Quantitative Investment Management, a hedge fund which uses AI for trading. He learned AI by using it to predict stock prices. Liang Wenfeng’s ability to program AI software to predict words is the direct result of his experience programming hedge fund software to predict stocks. But that means Xi’s crackdown on hedge funds is a crackdown on the exact same technology that powers AI. Financial engineering is the engineering that created DeepSeek. That makes Xi a menace to all technological progress in China, and very specifically to AI progress.
It is the experience of history that when free people pursue their self-interest, they create riches that no one could have anticipated beforehand, and when governments stop them because they think those people are doing something selfish or useless or frivolous, they prevent advances that no one could foresee. The great Chinese leaders from Deng Xiaoping to Hu Jintao all had the humility to let Chinese people pursue their self-interest, and the result was lifting a billion people out of poverty in the greatest economic miracle in history. But Xi Jinping believes that he knows better than everyone else, and the result has already been much slower economic growth and much less poverty alleviation under Xi. If he continues to dictate what economic activity is and is not permitted, he will stop all the activities that he doesn’t understand, which means all the technologies of the future.
For whatever reason, “Financial Capitalism” is the direction Capitalism is going now, not just in the US and Europe, but it was also the direction Chinese Capitalism was going before Xi Jinping. Financial Capitalism is the most data-intensive form of Capitalism. It abstracts away from physical products and asks purely mathematical questions – given a sequence of prices, words, etc., what is the next price or word in the series? Answer that question and it will pay you an almost unlimited amount of money. This is the type of question that requires an enormous amount of data and computing power to answer. But those are things the world has now. Today, with vast data and computers, we can answer questions that we never could before. And the country whose companies answer those questions will dominate the 21st century. But Xi is acting to prevent China from becoming that country, not because he hates the country – I’m sure he loves his country – but because, like most rulers, he thinks he knows better what work people should do than unknown pioneers like Liang Wenfeng.
China can’t even take over a small island that’s only 100 miles from the mainland and we’re supposed to believe that China could win a war with the US? There’s a reason that China has only been a regional power and not a global superpower – they’re cruddy soldiers and sailors.
Okay, but how does the Phoenix Center know this?
I work in manufacturing in the United States, surely one of the more regulated sectors of the American economy; and before this I worked in commercial and industrial building construction. Maybe I am missing something, but after decades working in these sectors, I see little anecdotal evidence to support the Phoenix Center’s assertion.
Do the Phoenix Center’s principals likewise have extensive experience working in highly regulated sectors? Or are they mainly theoreticians with Ph.D.s in economics and such?
Don’t get me wrong: I respect a Ph.D. in economics; I certainly don’t have one! Nevertheless, when men with Ph.D.s advance assertions that broadly contradict my own decades of practical professional experience, why, I must ask some questions.
The real elephant in the room is that (((Langley))) operates for the Jewish money power. It is that power that is fomenting conflict and WW3, EXACTLY as Hitler warned of prior to start of open warfare in WW2. Through their overwhelming control of media, they drive the masses. And through their clandestine control via the money power, of goverment/politicians, they move the world as they want, in the end. They need their prophecies fulfilled ya know! Also, fleece and cull the Goyim. Let us all kill each other, then they sink their tentacles into the winner’s body politic. It’s all Jewish anyway. Communism. Islam. Christianity. All religions of victimhood, jealousy and vengeance against the strong. And all protect the Jew. I would hope that the Chinese, being ethnically unified, and intelligent students of history, might at least succeed where Hitler failed.
The sooner free-minded humans recognize Judaism for the supremacist psychotic antihuman “religion” it is, and the Zionism it necessates, as the primary source of the world’s evils today, the sooner humanity might actually have a future for its children.
If that was the case, there ought to be plenty of remnants of such advanced civilization. Many people must be wondering, where are all the architectural relics that one can visit, even if they might have undergone some restoration in the meantime?
In Europe one can visit cities like Rome, Cordova, Seville, Syracuse, Bruges, Venice, Florence, Split, Verona, Arles, Segovia, and many sites in Greece to see evidence of past advanced living and economic productivity. And somewhat later in time, during the 17th century cities like Amsterdam and Danzig played important roles in the North Sea and Baltic Sea, respectively.
Other than perhaps Xi’an and the Forbidden City in Beijing, where are the the Chinese locations that might be comparable in prestige to some of the European cities mentioned above? I have the impression that from an architectural perspective, Chinese progress tends to be associated not so much with legendary dynastic preeminence but rather is characterized by modern buildings designed by American and European architectural bureaus, as in larger Arabian cities, such as Dubai and Qatar.
Yours is an unusually thoughtful comment, so I have a question, because I am not persuaded.
There was an embarrassing period in my twenties, during the 1990s, during which I undertook the shady discipline of card counting at blackjack in Atlantic City. Card counting requires attention, practice, a certain intellect and a mathematical bent; and, I may say, I did make a little money at the cards (though not much) before coming to my senses—realizing that there were more honorable, productive, socially useful endeavors at which I should spend my time.
Isn’t making “an almost unlimited amount of money” by predicting “the next price … in the series” somewhat an endeavor of this kind? If it is, then why is Xi Jinping wrong to discourage it?
You have raised a good point. The problem is that answering that question is too difficult in financial markets because they are chaotic systems from a mathematical perspective. There are too many variables and unpredictable second, third order effects that may arise spontaneously due to the fact that human behavior and psychology are a key factor that drive an outcome, so that the elaborate simulation models turn out to be unreliable. It is easier to make money the old-fashioned way, through insider trading, though technically illegal. By contrast, numerical models for fluid dynamics (including aerodynamics), which use supercomputers, can yield better predictions. By contrast, climate models, upon which the global warming hoax is primarily based, have been notorious wrong because the phenomenon is also too complex.
I knew a Chinese guy who visited China around 2010.
He said that windows in apartment buildings would routinely fall into the street, and people were advised not to lean on balconies.
Corruption can be blamed for this–but I think IQ factors are more likely.
The dumbest European builder would understand the concept of fastening a window.
I think the claims about China’s superiority are mostly media fabrication.
Reality is China needs to connect with the US to gain western technology–it then grafted with Germany for a time–and now Russia.
There’s a pattern.
I also wonder if Confucius and the Art of War were some kind of hoax. When did China become experts on warfare?
Did I miss something in their glorious history of famous warriors that no one in the West has ever heard of other than the Art of War author? And was he talked about before China went communist?
Yup, that is what I was referring to.
While as you said correctly the northern barbarians were THE major threat, and the reason why the Great Wall was built and maintained by every succeeding dynasty, it doesn’t mean there were no other dangerous enemies elsewhere.
For example,
Tibetan Empire existed about 600 – 900AD
Japanese attempted invasion of Silla, a Korean kingdom allied with China circa 700AD – resulted in a decisive defeat of Japanese. The result was wholesale Japanese adoption of Chinese technology and culture. If you are wondering why Japanese and Chinese have so much similarity….it goes back to then.
Japanese attempted invasion of Korea in 1500s. The ultimate goal was to invade China via Korea. Defeated by Chinese and Korean forces.
Japanese took the opportunity to invade China in 1930s, while China itself was in a state of civil war. The Japanese were partially successful, but fought to a stalemate.
The Japanese finally annexed Korea in 1910 when China was too weak to defend it.
Japanese annexation of the independent Kingdom of Okinawa/Ryuku when China was too weak to defend it – 1800s
Japanese annexation of Taiwan, again due to China’s weakened state- 1800s
Dutch attempted invasions/colonisation of Taiwan – 1600s
British Opium Wars, the final straw that broke the Chinese Camel’s back – 1800s
French annexations of southern China – 1800s
8 Power invasion of China, including USA, considered a great humiliation by the Chinese, sparking widespread discontent and rebellion against the Qing ruling dynasty, and birth of the Chinese Republic – 1800s.
Those I have listed above do not include the northern nomadic tribes like the Mongols etc…which are far more numerous that what I have listed.
Clearly China was subjected to its fair share of invasions.
It seems “The Eastern Origins of Western Civilization” by John M. Hobson is not a heresy.
It is also said that the European Renaissance was rooted in or inspired by the debate about the rationale of Confucianism in China. This information was passed back to the Vatican by Matteo Ricci from Ming Dynasty in China. The debate like a ray of sunlight broke through the dark cloud that covered Europe during the Medieval Dark Age.
The Great Wall of China was built to contain Mongolid- chinese racial groups- because of their extreme aggression and proclivity towards mass murder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebBxaWq10Gw&pp=ygUcY2VudHJhbCBhc2lhIGRlYXRoIG9mIGJlYXV0eQ%3D%3D
Do you know the Americans built a leaning 670 ft tall residential skyscraper that nobody can live at 161 Maiden Lane in the Financial District of Manhattan, New York City, United States? This is a fact that you can see, not like fake news you got from someone who claimed he visited China around 15 years ago. This silly building proves the Americans are one degree dumber than the dumbest Europeans.
Art of War is a mandatory course in West Point and most military colleges and war research institutions, as well as in high-end business research schools around the world. It seems you are too low grade to know it, perhaps your ignorance contributes to the failed US education system.
It is better for you not to know about China, it is beneficial to your nation because it will stop you from reinforcing the image of the USA as a ‘God-fearing’ morally defunct evil ‘Red-neck’ cult.
Only faggots and British queers use the word “Yanks,” bumbling excrement-for-brains.
If you are the cyber army, there is no need to spread rumors about me, a Chinese.
Your rumors fool the trash. Your rumors don’t fool us.
Next time, I’ll figure out how to kill your whole family.
杀你妈杀你全家，给你吃你妈骨灰拌饭，贱种白皮
It’s a myth that financial markets are unpredictable chaotic systems. Certainly if you could predict prices perfectly, then everyone would predict the same price, and no one would trade. On the other hand, if you couldn’t predict prices at all, then no one could buy low and sell high, so prices would contain no information at all which is absolutely not true. So, the truth is in between total predictability and zero predictability. You can actually predict prices a little bit, and a little bit of predictability is enough to make money. That’s how quantitative hedge funds like Liang Wenfeng’s High-Flyer Quantitative Investment Management can generate profits. In fact, High-Flyer is so profitable that Liang Wenfeng basically runs DeepSeek as a non-profit hobby, giving away its AI models for free as open source.
You mean it is the most Bubbliciious form of Capitalism. You yourself recognise that it is not based tangible goods or services, but speculation based on speculation.
Xi Jinping did China a big favour by correcting course.
China will be the one left laughing when the US bubble bursts.
That is like a hyena laughing at an elephant for being weak, because it doesn’t like to predate on other animals.
Enjoy
There are different types of regulation; some are for consumer protection(the few), and others for monopoly protection(the many), and some for corporate protection, and contrary to your link, big business’ loves regulation when it is in their favor.
I could give you a song and dance about how correcting mispricing in capital markets is good for the economy, like any classical economist would, but I don’t really believe that. What I do believe is that “financial capitalism” provides opportunities to make huge profits by figuring out how to solve formerly unsolvable numerical problems, and by paying ungodly amounts of money to smart people for solving those problems, it is creating whole new industries such as AI. That’s why AI emerged in the US, and Xi would be wise to let these same developments unfold in China, which they were already doing naturally under Deng through Hu.
I don’t know how much of AI is hype, and how much it will really change the world, but if any of the hype is actually true, AI could be the most powerful technology of the 21st century. So, developing cutting-edge prediction techniques that feed directly into better and better AI might be the most valuable projects people are working on today.
I think that the future belongs to whoever can best convert information into understanding, and “financial capitalism” has the unintended effect of incentivizing people to do exactly that at scale. The US is probably blessed to be on that development path, not that we did it on purpose of course.
damn near objectively the best chinese/chinacentric youtuber (for non-mandarin speaking folk):
https://www.youtube.com/@littlechineseeverywhere
she’s chinese but speaks perfect english (as far as my “standards”) so she can actually talk to everyone instead of just about them. (sun kissed and other eurotourist channels are okay but come across as basic westerners saying “water is wet!” for the eurobasics only listen to “their own kind”.)
plus she’s just kinda adorable and goes to places that make you think, “is that earth?!?!?” in some older videos she hangs out iran (icluding a random desolate desert) just for shits and giggles.
Something to consider.
It’s a matter of IF the Chinese decided to fire shipping missiles. Not when. Certainly not at this point.
Do not piss into your own bowl – Chinese proverb.
You might be also be interested in below books:
Multicultural Origins of the Global Economy: Beyond the Western-Centric Frontier
by John A Hobson
https://eprints.glos.ac.uk/9865/1/9865-Goodwin-Hawkins-%282021%29-John-M-Hobson-multicultural-origins-of-the-global.pdf
The Eastern Origins of Western Civilisation by John A Hobson
https://archive.org/details/easternoriginsof0000hobs
The Gunpowder Age: China, Military Innovation, and the Rise of the West in World History
by Tonio Andrade
Before European Hegemony: The World System A.D. 1250-1350 by Janet Abu-Lughod
Eurocentrism by Samir Amin
Eight Eurocentric historians by James Morris Blaut
Empires of the Weak by J. C. Sharman
Great Powers and the Quest for Hegemony: World order since 1500 Jeremy Black
“…McNeill’s discussion of this major reversal of the power pattern of the Old World is not completely satisfying, especially in view of his outstanding success in dealing with the much longer and more complex earlier periods. He handles the extension of Russia across the Heartland and of Europe across the oceans well enough, but is not nearly as convincing in his analysis of the disintegration of the fringe empires. Nor are his explanations of the expansion of either Russia or the West adequate.
He treats the expansion of the West as a steady process from the Renaissance onward, when this expansion dearly hesitated and even retreated in the period 1600-1800, as marked by the exclusion of Europeans from Japan and China, the revival of India’s autonomy between the Portuguese and the British intrusions, the long delay in tropical African exploration between the sixteenth century and the nineteenth, and, above all, the slump in the internal developments of Europe between the “price revolution” of the sixteenth century and the agricultural revolution of the eighteenth century.
http://www.carrollquigley.net/book-reviews/The_Generalists_%20Past.htm
“…The chief weakness of the volume appears in its chronological structure, expressed in the title as “from the eighteenth century.” In the text this is divided into a twofold sequence (“Before 1815” and “After 1815”), which the author calls the “first” and “second” expansions of Europe, with a transition period, 1763-1830, in between. This periodization of the subject is sufficiently inaccurate to influence the book adversely. The “first expansion of Europe,” of course, was that of 1100-1350, which culminated in men like Marco Polo; the second expansion of Europe was from about 1420 to about fellow 1650 and was followed by a long retraction of Europe, including the almost complete withdrawal of European pressure from Japan, China, tropical Africa, tropical South America, and the southern United States area. This withdrawal of European pressure, which included the cessation of the Russian intrusion into China by the Treaty of Nerchinsk (1689), is of some some importance to Mr. Fieldhouse’s discussion, but he does not seem to see its significance. This is one of several reasons why the brief section on “The Russian Empire in Central Asia” (pp. 334-341) is the weakest part of the book…”
http://www.carrollquigley.net/book-reviews/Back-of-Colonial-Empires.htm
Dear Ron Unz: Sorry for not staying within the topics of each of the news articles posted on the website.
I don’t feel good participating in other discussion forums around the internet. Because most discussion websites exercise a great deal of censorship (like reddit) and do not really offer their participants their right to freedom of ideas, and freedom of speech. I think this is one of the only discussion websites where people have total freedom to communicate their ideas, feelings and problems.
But I will do my best to stay within the topic of each of the articles posted here on this website.
Thanks
Then how come how the Yanks in the US Deep State don’t have the balls to start a war against China? Why do they want to use other countries to do the fighting for them?
A REALLY vicious racist, Sinophobe, liar. This place is really attracting the worst scum.
Has Been, climatologists say that ‘All models are wrong, but some are useful’. The models have constantly improved, like EVs, as more data is available and computer power increases. All meaningless to a brainwashed Rightwing liar like you.
They have generally been incorrect, but mostly in UNDERESTIMATING the extent and pace of the catastrophe. As for it being a ‘hoax’, a favourite projection of reactionary paranoiacs like you, that would require the complicity of tens of thousands of scientists, the satellite and Argo buoy monitors being corrupted, and the montane glaciers, sea ice, permafrost and sea temperatures all being in on the plot, because they are melting, in the case of the cryosphere, and rising in the case of sea temperatures, rapidly. You are the full poisonous sack of shite, aren’t you.
You really are a pig ignorant racist swine aren’t you? A perfect Banderite fan-boy.
You watched the Grammy Awards. Consider what that means about you. How could you? Do you read People magazine too? Watch the Kardashians? Never miss TMZ?
It was Arabs that invaded Europe from about 700 AD to the early 1800s. Arabs are White Caucasians. So are Turks. And there were so many Slavic slaves in the Turkish armies and Turkey that Turkish DNA is 42 percent Slavic. Persians are White Aryans. Are you aware that at the Muslim slave auctions the women were displayed to the buyers completely naked?
There are Asian and African Muslims. But the majority of Muslims have always been White Caucasians.
The absolute ignorance of the Men of Unz never ceases to amaze. You watch the Grammys.
This argument is academic because China won’t do anything, the U.S keep slapping Chinas cheek, China turns and the U.S slaps the other cheek.
The latest insult is the Panama canal where, with little effort, China’s belt and road initiative is trashed in Panama, all that effort gone.
China is losing face now around the world, demonstrations of tech prowess is all good and well but a bully doesn’t understand that, all a bully understands is a punch in the guts.
The official date the renaissance began was 1341 when an Italian Pretarch organized a poetry festival in Rome. Much of the poetry was not contemporary but mostly Ancient Greek and some Ancient Roman.
1341 the date recognized by all historians.
Matteo Ricci went to China in 1582 240 years later. He never returned to Europe. He did learn one of the Chinese languages probably Mandarin. He intensively studied China. He did write some articles comparing Confucianism and Christianity He never brought then to theVatican. He never left China. He sent his writings about Confucianism to the Jesuit headquarters He was a Jesuit. . As all those religious scholars of every religion wrote about comparative religions .
Ricci went to China 240 years after the Renaissance began. By the time Ricci went to China the Renaissance had ended and the early modern era began.
The ignorance on this site never ceases to amaze.
Ron is a lobbyist for China. He really should register as a lobbyist for a foreign country. He’s running something like AIPAC for China.
And then you learn that DeepSeek is actually based on ancient Soviet code and its true father is Viktor Glushkov, deceased in 1982.
HI Mr Ronald UNz,
Please watch these YouTube Videos from an American Businessman who is doing work in China. he started a youtube channel about 15 months ago as of Feb 2025. His videos are short but packed full of economic data which shows the alternative views and all his data is from western institutions. You will also love his videos on Chinese students in American Universities’ as it ties in a lot to your previous research. His name is Mr Kevin Walmsley and his Channel’s name is Inside China Business. Here is the link
https://www.youtube.com/@Inside_China_Business
Here is his substack channel
https://kdwalmsley.substack.com/
Love from Johannesburg
The number of people who non-facetiously refer to China as practising communism is astonishing. They must also think North Korea and Congo are democratic.
Use of boldface does not make an argument any more convincing.
video — ‘But I think the real lesson, the more profound one, is that we are at war with China. We are in an AI arms race.’
The person talking his company’s book and saying ‘we’ is Shyam Sankar of Palantir — he was born in Mumbai.
>Americans are one degree dumber than the dumbest Europeans
This isn’t the topic here, but if you’re looking for problems with modern American buildings, you could also mention Millennium Tower in San Francisco.
However in 2009, an entire brand new residential highrise in Shanghai fell over:
Shanghai probes building collapse
(Per previous experience: — one person died, and I don’t wish to make light of that.)
So in your estimation, how dumb does that make the Chinese?
How could that alleged Chinese general have known in 2003 that the US was “rapidly disintegrating”? At the time the US was still normal and mostly sane.
LOL. My views on China and the Chinese haven’t changed in nearly fifty years. Here’s what I wrote back in 2018:
https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-the-bolshevik-revolution-and-its-aftermath/#chinese-history-and-russian-history
https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/
Suppose someone claimed that your endless criticism of the Kennedys on the Internet was because you had recently been bribed to do so. Wouldn’t you consider that a very foolish accusation?
I repeat.
Do you believe that there was not Tiananmen Square Massacre?
First, reply to it.
Don’t distract.
Shit bitch.
i agree with you 100 percent sir, and if the gangsters that run china can wait just a little longer, the gangsters that run the US will make us so weak the PLA will be able to just walk in. the chinks are here now, courtesy mayorkas. they’ve sent their best criminals here to destablize our country. wake up people.
In case anyone is interested, here is an interview with Deepseek’s CEO/Founder dubbed in English.
Enjoy
You must be kidding. News from the BBC is a default fabrication through thin air. The Americans allow the BBC to lead them by the nose, and it is getting ridiculous.
USSR helped China and NK greatly in 1950 against the fake-jew-controlled-Usa. Now China is not helping Russia that much against the same. Why?
The DeepSeek phenomenon is rightly showcased here at TUR, with Whitney’s articles and now this interview above. Though I agree with the gist of this piece, basically that China has reached almost the same level of AI development as the US, a news item that came out Sunday night seems to indicate that the US may have surged ahead once again:
Now I’ve been taking a look into OpenAI’s Deep Research and it does seem like an incredible tool, especially for academics and other researchers — maybe even justifying the $200 per month price tag for ChatGPT Pro? It would be great if Unz could look at this phenomenon and give us his take on it.
It does seem like OpenAi’s sudden release of Deep Research is a direct reaction to DeepSeek’s popularity — the timing was just right so it doesn’t seem merely coincidental. This seems like a good development, because the more competition there is in this area, the more the public will benefit.
Some people are already posting some use cases of Deep Research, which supposedly cuts down the work of researchers from many hours or even days and weeks to less than 30 minutes (which is still long for an AI response). But it does seem thorough, since the answers Deep Research offers sometimes run over 10,000 words. I’ll put up a few use cases after the more tab. Here below are some quotes from OpenAi’s Deep Research response to a question about DeepSeek itself, which is about 9,000 words long:
Donald Trump’s Executive Actions Since January 2025
https://chatgpt.com/share/67a0cab1-bb10-8011-b7d8-5f4fb39a68b7
AI News Roundup (Past Week)
https://chatgpt.com/share/67a13d3a-6db8-8006-8ba9-4f92d808b310
Jeff J. Hunter – Biography
https://chatgpt.com/share/67a16046-3d94-8010-8e98-31a950b6ac7e
Russian research papers from the 1960s and 1970s
https://chatgpt.com/share/67a0a2d6-4aac-8001-a3a3-7422be425d93
Reinforcement Learning Training in DeepSeek R1 vs Google’s “Thinking” Model vs OpenAI O1/O3
https://chatgpt.com/share/67a0d409-4238-8011-86c2-952839fec69e
Early Cancer Detection: Unresolved Problems and Emerging Solutions
https://chatgpt.com/share/67a0edef-b0fc-8004-b06d-8ac63491c6e2
Dynamic Planar Mirror Reflections with Render-to-Texture
https://chatgpt.com/share/67a09edb-4ca4-800c-8050-57e325606d66
OK.
Per the about page on their website, china.org.cn is an ‘authorized government portal site to China, published under the auspices of the State Council Information Office and the China International Publishing Group in Beijing’ — here’s their story about it:
Toppled Shanghai residential building dismantled
So again: how dumb does that make the Chinese?
Nvidia has worked around D.C. regulations to continue selling similar high-end chips to China. This cat-and-mouse game of regulations is hilarious.
WSJ article: https://archive.ph/Yj5gV
If have also read a little on how it works. It is a somewhat different model, but is certainly not based on aggregating replies from (non-)Open AI, Grok, etc.
As for minority populations, I am not sure about Mongols (would guess the same, though), but the Manchu culture was certainly quashed for many years post-1949.
Those who want to are now allowed to have little ‘cultural studies clubs’, and exhibitions, somewhat like Ainu descendants in Japan.
However, in neither case does the living culture remain.
>My views on China and the Chinese haven’t changed in nearly fifty years.
Maybe not — but what does that have to do with saying you’re ‘a lobbyist for China’? — assuming one wanted to characterize your writing today as being roughly the same as what one would expect from ‘a lobbyist for China’, it doesn’t really matter whether your views on China have changed over the years or not, right?
>LOL
Yeah, some of the shit here is definitely amusing.
But the Europeans never admitted Arabs, Turks, Slavics, and Prussians are one of them. The Europeans hate those “next of kin” to the gut and have been mounting relentless wars to kill those “next of kin” to the last of their own. Historical facts are not in line with what you claimed.
Is your claim a new manufacture consent project from the office of 9/11, landing on the moon, using washing powder as evidence that Iraq has WMD?
Anyhow you should not be resentful that people do not trust the West because the West has been lying, cheating, and stealing for so long, that they are not trustworthy.
🙂
Marco Polo left for China in 1271, and he returned to Europe 24 years later. His recounting of the many marvels he had seen ignited Europe’s imagination and probably did more to start the Renaissance than anything else.
Look in the mirror, Alden.
Your ‘God-fearing’ morally defunct evil ‘Puritan’ racist, zero-sum, beggar-thy-neighbour, the dog in the manger cult mentality is toxic to mankind. Spreading hatred with fabricated news to soothe your jealousy, resentment, and fear of Chinese achievements is deadly and retarded.
It’s not a “whites” issue, it’s a class issue. Whites initially made up a significantly higher percentage of the US population than minorities at a time when America had a global monopoly on manufacturing and other GDP-generating sectors. This economic growth benefit all workers, including blacks and latinos who were already here and who came for financial improvement. Together those groups formed the American Middle Class, predominantly white though far from the homogeneity of the 1930s and 1940s.
It is the Middle Class that has been eroded and is being destroyed, taking with it its whites, blacks, latinos, and asians. This is about declining class income and its respective power, not about declining race. It’s why people in the middle class of all races elected Trump hoping for a change which I personally don’t think will come.
And what, do tell, is it that inspired these Europeans? They hear of a moribund empire at the other end of the world, with strange, archaic customs, and this gives them the idea to become scientists? Was it perhaps the impressive Chinese artworks that opened Michelangelo’s eyes to a higher calling? Or maybe it was the tea?
Practically everything in China that is newer than 1600 AD has a European origin. Even their political systems. If anybody got inspired, it was them.
One very important aspect that Ron did not mention. Neither Russia or Iran will let, and cannot afford for any to lose. Fight one, you fight all three. Like the 3 Muskateers. This is from necessity and survival, as well as prosperity and preservation. That’s it and that’s all.
What happened in 1420? Portuguese venturing to Africa? Some developments in the Portuguese Navigation School? Portuguese ship going west and finding Brazil?
I know all about Marco Polo. And the fact that his father uncle and other Italian traders often spent years on the Silk Road going back and forth to China. Even ancient Roman traders traveled the Silk Road
The fact that Polo went to China in 1270 does not the fact that the official date of the beginning of the Renaissance is 1341 when the Italian poet Pretarch organized poetry contests and festivals that emphasized Ancient Greek and Roman poetry.
You had no idea that Marco’s father and uncle spent years in China and the countries along the Silk Road between Italy and China. When Marco was a child. You don’t know that Italians were trading with China in ancient Roman days.
Yes you are very ignorant about the lengthy history of relations between Italy and China as far back as Ancient Rome
And Polo’s trip to China 1270 was not the beginning of the Renaissance
Pretarch’s 1341 poetry festival is the date accepted by all historians.
And the Renaissance was at the end when Matteo Ricci was in China. Ricci was in China at the beginning of the early modern era.
You’re as ignorant as the rest of the commenters.
Not 1270 but 1341.
他被指控散布敌人的宣传品
look ma, i’m a chink!
When you were studying China in 1978 you weren’t yet a lobbyist for China. You are now. You should apply to be the Chinese Honorary Consul in Palo Alto. Honorary Consuls don’t have to be citizens of the countries they represent.
What next? That Alexander the Great Cleopatra all the ancient Egyptians and even Jesus were Chinese?
Your articles read very much like all the tall tales that Jesus Cleopatra Alexander the Great ancient Egyptians even European monarchs were actually black Africans. Black Tudors one of King Edward’s sons the Black Prince actually a black man. Black navigators on Christopher Columbus ships.
Everything I’ve written about President Kennedy is the absolute truth. Anglin has an article about the sinister organization USAID. Another John Kennedy creation.
Marco Polo’s description of the wonders he had seen in China initiated a large transfer of Chinese technology to Europe. Sometimes the simplest technology, easily replicable from a mere description of it, can have profound consequences. For example, Polo definitely mentioned China’s use of paper money — which enables a country’s wealth to grow far beyond the amount of gold that could be mined. This growth in wealth by itself could have caused the Renaissance.
I’m sorry, but I am rather old fashioned:
It is the height of bad manners and bad breeding to insult one’s gracious host in his own house.
This reflexive name-calling response is an obvious cue that you don’t have an answer and are embarrassed to admit it. My question was legitimate because I had once looked into the issue and was disappointed to note that China doesn’t appear to have that much to show for so many centuries of purportedly vibrant and advanced civilization with large populations, when compared to some notable places in Europe that I had mentioned.
I have checked out pictures of Ping Yao and the eight ancient capital cities, but other than some isolated temples, palaces, and walls, the old towns themselves don’t seem to have been well preserved. Public squares, statues, obelisks, water fountains with sculptures, clock and bell towers, colonnades, open air theaters or coliseums, and similar displays of high culture seem to not exist. Perhaps somebody could explain this dearth of remnant architecture.
Eight Ancient Capitals in China
https://www.thechinajourney.com/the-8-ancient-capitals-of-china/
Marco Polo’s father and uncle, Niccolò and Maffeo, did indeed visit China earlier than Marco, but their travels had little impact on the world because they were not recorded.
The Romans rarely traded directly with China. Intermediaries such as Parthians prevented much contact between the two civilizations on opposite sides of the Eurasian continent. So China did not have much effect on Rome, and vice-versa.
Marco Polo’s travels had an enormous impact on Europe since he wrote about the marvels he had seen; he showed the backward Europeans what was possible. So I give him a lot of credit for starting the Renaissance.
Still so free with insults? I repeat my response to your earlier remark about ignorance: Look in the mirror, Alden.
Confucious say: “Man who walks straight through airport turnstile is going to Bangkok.”
Yeah-a pig ignorant, supremacist (goes with your Banderism, perfectly)racist. And with the chutzpah to deny it. ‘I checked out pictures of Ping Yao…’-the arrogance is trade-mark. Western racial and cultural supremacist contempt at its most nauseating.
The Chinese part translates to : Kill your mother, kill your whole family, eat your mother’s ashes mixed with rice, you bitch is white-skinned.
Now most people here have heard of the Ugly American! This is the Ugly Chink Bastard! LOL!!!!
On the bright side he can be excused as he only has $18 a week food budget … and is likely suffering stomach cramps. ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!
The Renaissance began in the 12th century, but was a slow burn for a wee while.
It must be such a burden to be a White God in a world becoming dominated by the ‘Yellow Plague’, eh Adolph.
Exactly. This was one long paean to the chinaman and it got to be a little sickening after a solid hour. The author/speaker seemed to have lost his senses at some point.
Oh yes, the vaunted yellow victory.
In about 1890 it was declared that every scientific question had been answered, the white man would dominate the world forever and the dark races would slowly fade into oblivion. Sounds really stupid today, doesn’t it?
In some ways you remind me of them. Like children you are fond of your new powers, and like them you will become arrogant and make mistakes. The yellow man might one day discover the responsibilities of power, but seeing as he remains impotent even in his ascendancy I have my doubts.
I’ll let you in on some “white god” wisdom Mulga: Don’t worry about things you can’t control.
You’re right, Italians are nice people. And you know what? With few exceptions, people of Italian extraction view American blacks as vile subhumans who are best avoided. If you need a guide, there it is.
Great article and summary.
Especially funny the scattered-brained creative accounting schemes used to artificially boost the UK GDP;
Maybe they can further boost UK GDP stats by combining the these two concepts and counting the “imputed conjugal services” which would be the amount of money someone would have to pay a prostitute to sleep with them for the conjugal services which are usually rendered tax fee.
Hasn’t Richard Wolff been making pretty much the exact same pitch for a very long time? It seems he has been making the same pitch since the first day the internet announced that he wanted my attention.
Still waiting for somebody to show me how one makes a profit investing in Chinese stocks.
go fungus you magnificent bastard
if this thread is a microcosm of the world today we’re fucked there’s gonna be a war for sure… a big one.
i’m jealous
I miss the pre-Internet days, during which ordinary Americans could discuss affairs of state amongst themselves without random foreigners pushing in to derail the conversation. However, your comment is politer and more thoughtful than most, so I will respond to it.
The Panama Canal is as American as Taiwan is Chinese. Just as we Americans knew or should have known that we were courting trouble by interfering in Taiwan, Chinese knew or should have known that they were courting trouble by interfering in Panama.
To court trouble might be worth the price, perhaps, and you might even think that to court trouble in Panama were fair revenge for the United States’ Taiwan policy; but surely you cannot believe that Belt and Road in Panama could be perceived by Americans as anything other than a national insult.
When being a “useful idiot” it is best to be “the best that you can be”! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!
A glance at the demographics chart of China shows a 15 million or so decline in the population in just one year of the Great Famine ….. which lasted around 5 years … not the 3 years most sources quote.
I’ll stick with the generally accepted 40-50 million starved to death figure! LOL!!!!!!!!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China
and the dip in the years following the Great Famine … they were the years of Mao’s Cultural Revolution … during which … per most sources ….China lost another 10-20 million people. Based on the demographics chart, it would not surprise me to find out that China lost another 40-50 million.
The Cultural Revolution … when the Red Guards killed teachers and ate them …. Yum Yum!!!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangxi_Massacre
In specific areas, including Wuxuan County and Wuming, Nanning, hundreds of incidents of human cannibalism occurred—even though no famine conditions existed.
Teachers getting killed and eaten is the most likely reason Chinkland still has such a piss poor education system
Well, don’t forget that the quote came from an article I’d published in 2018. If you’d followed my discussions over the last few years, you’d know that since then, I’ve investigated the topic and found the analysis in TOMBSTONE quite convincing. So although I think 50 million is probably much too high, 35-40 million seems very plausible.
LOL. You and several of the other commenters here bring to mind Soviet apparatchiks of the late 1970s, outraged that people are reporting that plentiful, high-quality consumer goods can be bought in the shops of the West without spending hours standing in endless lines.
“Where is your loyalty to your Soviet Motherland, Comrade?!!”
It didn’t! The border between North and South Korea shows a substantial portion of South Korea includes land north of the 38th parallel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_Korea
The Chinks tried for 3 years to take that land back and FAILED …. MISERABLY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Most Chink casualties, of which there were around 1 million, of which around 400,000 were deaths, were from this period.
On the plus side, during that time frame Mao’s son got his well deserved BBQ courtesy of a US air strike! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
China owes the US for preventing another Chink dynasty forming … like in North Korea! LOL!!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Anying
According to multiple Chinese eyewitnesses, sometime between 10:00 am and noon on 25 November, four Douglas B-26 Invaders dropped napalm bombs in the area. One of the bombs destroyed a makeshift building near the caves, killing Mao and another officer, Gao Ruixin. Several conflicting reasons have been given as to why Mao was in the building, including suggestions that he was cooking food during daylight.
Fun fact 1 (take as you will):
Hitler, in private statements and reflections, was impressed by the Chinese and Japanese cultures and civilizations. He thought those great nations, with marvelous accomplishments. Hitler went so far as to suggest that the Germanic peoples had something to learn from them.
That’s interesting, since China in particular was stagnant or in steep decline in his day; should we consider the man, whatever else you think of him, prescient, able to see in China a potential no one else did? Well, both Napoleon and Hitler saw something in China, that much is clear.
Fun fact 2:
Of all Western cultures, the one most admired by the Chinese is that of . . . Germany. You would think maybe it would be that of Britain, or the United States, or maybe even that of France. But no, it has always been, without question, the German way of doing things (minus the militarism). It’s the Western culture most relatable, and most appealing to the Chinese since they encountered Europeans. (Chinese also admire the Russian culture, but know that is not a “Western” nation).
Conjecture:
Maybe “National-Socialist CHINA” is not so strange after all. Could this be yet another reason ((they)) hate the Chinese?
You are ignorant Polo’s travels to China 1270 were in medieval times Matteo Ricki’s years in China 1580 1610 were in the early modern era Not the Renaissance.
Renaissance most historians date the Renaissance 1341 with Pretarch poetry festival winner recurved a Roman style laurel wreath. To 1500 when the early modern era. Although some consider it began in 1450.
Again the level of ignorance on this site never ceases to amaze.
What’s wrong with the men of unz? None of you are the the to be happy with a bus driver or government clerk job. Your fathers put a man on the moon. But you men of unz are happy to give every medical tech engineering job to an Asian or Indian immigrant because Indian Brahmins allegedly have higher IQs than the average White And Chinese have an average IQ 5 to 7 points higher than the average White.
It’s very obvious none of you have sons or grandsons. Otherwise you would be aware that all the medical tech engineering jibs have gone to Asian Indian mostly immigrants for two generations now.
It’s not just the elite Whites who want to destroy the White race. It’s ordinary middle class men like you who favor affirmative action for anyone who is not White.
If China is do great why are Chinese so eager to leave China for America? Every level of Chinese from billionaires like the man who owns the LATimes to indentured servants who arrive in shipping containers
Why do you think rich Chinese gladly pay 80 to 100K for the pregnant wives to birth the baby in America for an anchor baby? And middle class borrow At usurious rates for the pregnant wives to birth the anchor baby in America.
That 80 to 100 K fee does not go for medical care. The pre and post natal care birth and care for the baby are all paid by Medi Caíd. Free medical care for the poor.
The 80 to 100 K goes to the maternity businesses. Not for medical care. You, the prosperous middle class taxpaying men of unz pay through Medicaid for the birth pre and post natal care and the baby’s medical care for the month or 6 weeks before mom and baby go back home. Clutching a dozen or more certified copies of the birth certificate. For extended family unification if there’s problems in China.
Speculation about a war between China and America is ridiculous. America needs Chinese products China needs the money America pays for their products.
Ron’s a childless billionaire. He doesn’t need a job. No kids who need jobs.
But the rest of you are suicidal fools
I hadn’t been directly aware of those facts, but they don’t surprise me in the least.
In fact, I suspect that if Hitler were brought back to life today, the country in the world he’d most admire would be the PRC, which over the last few decades had achieved exactly what he had hoped to do in Germany.
This brought to mind a long comment of mine from a decade ago regarding Lee Kuan Yew, which I’ll take the liberty of republishing at length given that it’s really quite relevant to this topic:
https://www.unz.com/akarlin/lee-kuan-yews-flawed-utopia/#comment-909271
What makes the difference between
1. Someone telling the truth about China
or
2. A lobbyist for China ?
Answer: Someone who says something you don’t like is a “lobbyist”.
If your Founding Fathers had a sense of fair play and intellectual integrity, their so called “heirs” have almost entirely lost it.
Ron is a light in the dark. Someone saying “something is not right here. Look, someone else over there doing well. They are are proof that we can improve”.
Instead of paying heed to him. You launch attacks and denigrate him instead. Preferring to stick your head back into the sand.
This is why your country is in a shambles. It is the easiest thing to blame it on others …. the Chinks or Russkies or Muzzies, or Latinos, or Joos, or Iranians or Venezuelans or N Koreans, etc etc …….. ad nauseam.
Blame it on yourselves because you do not have the courage to deal with your own problems honestly.
LOL. thats a coincidence.
I like the distinction you made with Boomers.
We may have cause to believe that attitudes of the teens and twenty somethings of the USA have very different views about China….as can be seen from their reactions after going onto Rednote.
If anything, it may well be them that save the USA from war with China. After their experience on Rednote, they will forever be less susceptible to the propaganda that their older generations are so addicted to.
It would also be a great irony if Rednote is banned and these young folks resort to using VPNs to get through the “US information firewall”.
Oh, I’ve investigated the Western allegations about Mao as the “world’s greatest mass murderer” which turned out to be nothing but Western propaganda intended to demonize Mao’s immense achievements as the world’s greatest revolutionary leader and whitewash Hirohito as some kind of innocent saint. This is the twisted logic of the Criminal West today, psychotic and perverted.
That’s not true at all. Swedish invasion of Russia Duchy of Muscovy expansion through invasion and conquest endless war between Turks and Europeans. 30 years war continual naval warfare between Britain Spain and Netherlands the endless wars in Europe continued from 1500 to 1815 despite Europe’s colonial wars.
Ron and Mike W. Thank you both for another highly informative and judiciously framed discussion of such important matters. I have here a critical concern that I picked up from Brian Berletic. Brian is one of the very few talking heads who is deeply attuned to East and South Asian matters. This is a refreshing change from the usual Eurocentric focus even among critical and alternative voices. Brian too is convinced that war is on the way. But his specific take is more challenging than the generally held idea that the flashpoints will be in the South China Sea where China’s short logistical lines would give it a major advantage. Brian, an ex Marine, calls attention to the major reconstitution of the Corps, relinquishing its tanks and artillery and fitting out with anti shipping missiles. Their assigned task evidently is to interdict Chinese shipping altogether all over the world. The idea is the Marines would land nearly anywhere they could and control sea lanes with missiles with a certain striking range. I take it that the idea is to cut China off from its lines of communication with the Persian Gulf, ports on the coast of Africa, such an important trading partner, and Latin American. Also they no doubt have ideas pertaining to the Northern Sea Route. This is not a naval strategy of blockade. The Americans seem to realise that their surface fleet consists of so many floating coffins, but they’re still intent on effecting a blockade. This is not going to be easy for the Chinese to check. The moral of the story is that this focus on the South China Sea is a bit too comforting. The real danger is greater and only Brian is talking about it.
I disagree about the term ‘shilling’ because most of the content on this website are quite critical of China. The only difference being that the content here are far more balanced than in the Western MSM due to other voices being given by Unz to express their counter narratives to the Western party-line. And I am personally grateful to Unz for this public service.
WTF? China is FILLED with historical sites.
Just because your Western media does not promote them, does not mean they do not exist. It is astounding how you are able to form opinions, even without bothering to research.
Are you really so dependent on being spoon fed by your propagandists? Have a mind of your own, fer God’s sake!
This one 2500 years old, irrigation works done circa 500BC in the far flung southwest of China, 1800 km from Beijing
This one is 1000 years old. Naxi ethnic minority town from circa 1000AD in Yunnan,m 2700km from Beijing, near the border of Vietnam
This one is 1300 years old, Water town from circa 800AD near Shanghai, 1200km from Beijing
LOL! You should look at yourself in the mirror and say: “Look Ma, I am a stupid gringo!”
Sorry the official date is 1341 the Pretarch poetry festival in Rome where the prize was a Roman laurel wreath. The 12th century is the 1100s.
Polo was before the beginning of the Renaissance. Ricci went to China 80 years into the early modern era.
The ignorance in this site never ceases to amaze.
The period of the Renaissance is a flux depending on the agenda of the person who answers, the same person can give you multiple answers like Trump. Most of the Western intellects said it began at the beginning of 14th century and ended at the end of 17th century. It well covered the period for Matteo Ricci to put his influence on the direction where the Renaissance ended.
The Renaissance was a dynamic movement, the development of its sophistication and sanity moved like an ice hockey stick, a long period of near-flat progress, suddenly it shot up like the blade of an ice hockey stick, BTW the US national debt also moved in the same fashion.
The Renaissance began as the aristocracy class adding some fun to their decadent lives, but ended as a precursor of the expansion of Western imperial colonial barbarism which brought endless tragedies, disasters, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes against peace to the world in the name of democracy, freedom, and the chosen one’s burden. The biggest contribution the West made to humanity is their capability to end humanity with their invented weapons, killing ideas, and morally defunct toxic cult ideology,
That topped building was 120 ft tall, compared to the 670 ft skyscraper in New York, the Americans are at least 5 times dumber.
China was exporting luxury goods to Europe via the Spanish Galleon Trade from 1565 to 1815.
In Mexico, the Spanish Galleon ships were called “nao de China” due to its abundance of Chinese luxury goods which were traded by the Spaniards in exchange for Mexican silver, half of which flowed to China during the 250-year period of the Spanish Galleon Trade.
What was China importing from Europe during that time? Nothing.
China is actually the country with the highest number of UNESCO World Heritage sites, tied with Italy.
See here:
Second Expansion
“…The debasement of Europe’s material, social, and spiritual life which had continued for over a century and a half was reversed, quite suddenly, just before the middle of the fifteenth century.
About 1440 new life began to spring up, with new hopes and renewed ambitions. This new growth was based on the activities of a new instrument of expansion, commercial capitalism, a complete circumvention of the previous feudal organization that had originated the older period of expansion in the tenth century.
This new instrument of expansion, which we call commercial capitalism, was a circumvention of feudalism, but it could just as well be regarded as a reform of the commercial organization of the Middle Ages…
…The new Age of Expansion after 1440 lasted until near the end of the seventeenth century. It is very familiar to all students of history and is frequently called the ambiguous term “Renaissance.”
Even a neophyte in the study of history is aware that this period possessed the qualities we have listed as typical of any Age of Expansion: increased production, rising population, geographic expansion, growth of knowledge, and intermittent impulses of science and democracy. Except for geographical expansion and science, all these were probably less extreme, in a quantitative sense, than history textbooks might lead us to believe, but I think there can be no doubt that they existed sufficiently to justify the name “expansion” for the period as a whole. The two most dramatic aspects of the period, however, are to be seen in science and in exploration and colonization…”
https://archive.org/details/CarrollQuigley-TheEvolutionOfCivilizations-AnIntroductionTo/page/n352/mode/1up?view=theater
http://www.carrollquigley.net/books.htm
Yes, obviously.
I never disputed that.
And I contend that Polo’s book in 1294 (or thereabouts) predated what you consider to be the “official” start of the Renaissance in 1341. I contend that Polo’s description of an amazing China did more than anything else to wake up the Europeans from their Dark Ages slumber and ignite the Renaissance.
And I say again, Look in the mirror, Alden.
When you mumble randomly, I am not obliged to answer.
I agree. (My “Agree” button doesn’t work yet.)
As I’ve long maintained, the 21st century will be basically defined by two very strong and very profound socio/political transformations that will sweep the world:
1/. The rise of China to full spectrum global economic, financial, monetary, scientific, technological, industrial, military etc etc dominance.
2/. The absolute decline, fall and eclipse of the white, (by this I mean strictly ‘of European descent’), races of the world in actual and relative numbers, economic, industrial and political power etc. The nadir – and defining fact of this decline and fall – will be the incontrovertible and absolute fact of the formerly white nations of north America and western Europe having a white minority population within themselves.
Fact 1/. above is really, in the greater scheme of things, mere trivia, not worth a damn and definitely not worth losing a wink of sleep over. The reply ‘So fucking what?’ should be the first and only remark issuing from any intelligent and self respecting white man.
But fact 2/. is, most certainly, the most terrible, horrific apocalyptic atrocity of a catastrophe that can possibly be imagined. A disaster of the likes recorded civilisation has never ever seen.
– and it was all deliberately inflicted by the governments of those white nations. It had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Chinese.
This in itself was not the issue I raised. In light of the somewhat pompous assertion in bold-faced words that prompted my comment in #116 above, I was curious about “architectural relics” pertaining to “advanced civilization” that were similar to what is in evidence in certain historical European cities that I had mentioned. In comment #175 I then specified at least eight features that I thought one might expect to see but did not notice in pictures of eight Chinese capital cities.
The city of Lijiang, which was featured in one of three videos you linked to, looks nice and worth visiting, but I did not see any of the features that I had mentioned. Narrow pedestrian streets with nice shops are standard in attracting tourists nowadays, so that is nothing special; in Europe they are ubiquitous. Decorative lanterns, balloons, candles, flowers, and an occasional pagoda provide a colorful ambience, but this is not the same thing as special architectural highlights – which according to an obnoxious nut-case commentator is somehow racist. If aesthetically pleasing and functional architecture, along with fountains and sculptures, are regarded as racist, a person who spouts such an opinion has obviously lost his mind.
Wuzhen, with its canals, shown in your third video, also seems like a nice place to visit. Based on topographical and hydrological drainage conditions, it would be understandable that people in such regions would build regulated canals, as well as the bridges to connect the small islands. Here too I did not notice the kinds of special features that I had hoped to see. I suppose your expectations are just lower.
Genuine competition is just one factor, IMO. Big capitalists try to kill it. Some factors as I see it:
– History of Boxer Rebellion (religious subversion), Western brutality, KMT chaos and vermin theft (in Shanghai)
– Communist revolution
– Capable military and controlled immigration
– Intelligence, uncorrupted education
– Meritocracy: administrators repeatedly trained, moved around; efficient punishment of corruption, even death penalty; ambitious criminals and traitors can only emigrate
– No scam of party politics, general elections, election donations or bribery (“lobbying”)
– Sovereign currency, government (public) banking and control over private banking.
– Huge domestic market; the bulk of production serves it
– Intense competition among regions, departments (even internal), industries, etc.
– Culture: nationalism, values, traditions, history; easy to see Western propaganda on politics, marketing and religion as delusional
– Savings, not financial slavery; essential expenses for home, education, health, transport, etc. are low.
– Low popular interest in financial market (“speculation”).
Allow me to mention CNA propaganda again. It tried to spin young people moving back to the countryside as shameful failures. In fact, this is resolves the tight employment market and reduces stress. It is the reverse of the US Rust Belt where only billionaires gain by buying up land. Some benefits:
– new skills or ideas for rural people
– new small rural businesses
– delighted aged parents
– above all, maintenance of small farms, as some returnees take up such work.
With an area of ~10M sq. km. compared to Italy’s 300k, and with a population that was already in Antiquity about the same as Italy’s today, on a per person basis, that’s not exactly what I’d call a resounding achievement. Let’s not even speak about what the Romans left outside of Italy.
I think American Whites eschew politics because of demoralization and poor diet. There’s also stress. The Jews weaponized everything in American society long ago so that the institutions would serve them through lawfare and through institutional discrimination against White males. Over several decades, this has weakened young White men and fed despondency and alienation. Everything the Jews do is aimed at killing off Amalek. White women have done their part by siding with the Jews against their own male offspring or family members. People in the United States feel trapped. They are terrified of the police state, and they’re tax mules paying for Israel’s crimes. American society is defined by anti-natalist policies and beliefs, and the Jews are working overtime to take away dreams/opportunities from White males. Consequently, not enough family formulation and a culture that kills children anyway with the vaccines Big Pharma is rolling out. The political class is compromised and Jew banksters are running the country into the ground while stripping it bare. White Americans are a conquered people who now serve evil because it’s too hard to fight against it.
The game has been over for a long time. The US will now throw over the chessboard and go to war.
Great post. Americans have always been bullying cowards, just like their kosher rulers.
I grew up in the West in the 1970s, in France to be precise, so comparing me to Soviet apparatchiks really falls flat. However, speaking of Soviets, you probably missed my comment, but DeepSeek happens to be an implementation of work done by Viktor Glushkov, circa half a century ago. Even Liang Wensheng admitted as much.
我操你妈的全家祖宗十八代
I don’t even know what’s the point of being a piece of shit like you.
Just want to clarify: that was Andrew Anglin’s analogy. 🙂
I am not sure why you insist on capital cities in China, since you yourself in #116 listed and I quote:
Rome, Cordova, Seville, Syracuse, Bruges, Venice, Florence, Split, Verona, Arles, Segovia,
Of the 11 Cities that you quoted, only one is a Capital City.
I quoted Lijiang, Dujiangyan, and Wuzhen, SPECIFICALLY because you wanted to see cities other than Beijing and Xian….. that is why I took pains to give you the distances from Beijing. ….and I quote again from #116
Other than perhaps Xi’an and the Forbidden City in Beijing, where are the the Chinese locations that might be comparable in prestige to some of the European cities mentioned above?
I have SPECIFICALLY addressed the parameters that you have challenged us with.
You were not asking for something special. You were asking for something comparable. Please refer to your own words in #116
where are the the Chinese locations that might be comparable in prestige to some of the European cities mentioned above?
I want to recap the summary of our discussion:
Your post #116 where you basically said “yeah China has all these fancy modern soul-less buildings, but where are all those richly historical architectural wonders that Europe has?”
My reply in #205 says “China has lots of historical sites, look at these three”.
Your reply in #215 says “Yeah, China has all these nice historical stuff, but nothing of “fancy stuff and high culture”, which I assume was referring to your post #175 to MM”
My reply to you now: Ok I will take on that challenge too.
Let us agree what you “hope to see”. I extract from your #175 below in italics….. can we agree that these are what you want to see, or at least the Chinese equivalent?
Public squares, statues, obelisks, water fountains with sculptures, clock and bell towers, colonnades, open air theaters or coliseums, and similar displays of high culture
So that they can translate across cultures, I will use more generic definitins:
Public squares – Community used spaces
Statues – Statues
Obelisks – Memorials / Monuments
Water fountains – Public water feature for delight
Clock and Bell towers – Tall Public focal points of prestige
Colonnades – Public places of respite and delight
Open air theatres/coliseums – Public places of entertainment
Is my translation to generic terms fair enough?
This year coincides with one of the most significant technical inventions of the information age, the movable type printing press by Johannes Gutenberg. His press went into production in Mainz ten years later.
Wikipedia:
“It was in Strasbourg in 1440 that he is said to have perfected and unveiled the secret of printing based on his research…
…
By 1450, the press was in operation, and a German poem had been printed, possibly the first item to be printed there.”
Many cultural heritage sites in China are still unknown because they remain undiscovered. For example, the Terracotta Army in Xian, Shaanxi was discovered only in 1974, buried near the Tomb of Qin Shi Huang Di which has yet to be unearthed while most archaeological discoveries only took place in the 20th century such as the Magao Caves in Dunhuang, Gansu discovered in 1900, the Sanxingdui Ruins in Guanghan, Sichuan discovered in 1929, the Shuanghuaishu Site in Zhengzhou, Henan discovered in 2020, etc. So the UNESCO World Heritage Sites in China today are just a fraction of the more than 10,000 archaeological discoveries made in the last century, most of them still being unearthed, studied, catalogued, preserved and renovated only in the last few decades due to the chaotic history of China during the 20th century. More cultural sites in China will become UNESCO World Heritage Sites in the future as they become available for viewing to the public.
Ron is implying that the current West is like the old Soviet Union.
The children of Harry Truman and Douglas MacArthur were Non-equal-opportunity warriors!!! It was always more desirable to let other people’s children die for rescuing and reflating their wounded ego.
You are absolutely right. The modern world is built on the significant inventions such as paper and movable type printing.
But I have a correction on the inventors and place of invention:
Movable type printing was invented in China about 1000AD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi_Sheng
Paper was invented in China about 100AD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_paper
It is sad that China doesn’t get its due credit.
Please avoid broad generalizations and overviews of the Chinese people. Despite having a devotion to Confucianism, they are none the less, human beings subject to committing any one or combination of the seven deadly sins. Christianity has a complex array of belief systems built into it e.g., Evangelical, Calvinist, Catholic, Coptic, Greek and Russian Orthodoxies, Protestant and each of these have unique viewpoints and disparate religious passion(s). Further, China suffers from a severe wealth discrepancy between rural and big city populations. Here in the West, our unfaithful Main Stream Media never reports on those daily riots the policing agencies must forcibly and violently quell. Organized crime in China has networks of Tong societies aka Mobsters and there seems to be a collective narcissism when it comes to being (genetically) Chinese. There is a small but strong aristocratic class of “one per-centers” the children of the so called “immortals” who are as a group, fabulously wealthy representing the spawn of apparatchiks who rule un-elected, from inside the CCP officialdom.
This is meant to be a reply to your post:
https://www.unz.com/runz/confucious-deepseek-and-why-china-would-win-a-war-with-the-united-states/#comment-6980495
Of the 59 UNESCO World Heritage sites in China, 40 are cultural, 15 are natural i.e. the Chinese didn’t create them, 4 are both. Of the 60 sites in Italy, 54 are cultural, 6 are natural. Just sayin’.
Yes, from what I understand only 1/4 or 1/3 of the “terracotta warriors”have been excavated. The main royal and other chambers have not even been touched.
The archaelogists noticed that some pigments were destroyed quickly after being exposed to air. So they left most of it to be excavated at a later time when there are better techniques and technology at hand.
Chinese people in mainland China
can not watch the following video :
【My grandma’s wardrobe was broken, so I gave it a makeover】
🔶
(14 : 00)
YouTube is blocked in mainland China.
The Soviet Union was a paragon of sanity compared to the West today.
Thanks 🙂
Anglin was very polite. If it were me, I would have used Hyena instead of Tiger to describe them…LOL
The specific issue was about the significance of the year 1440 and its probable impact “renewed ambitions” for developments in Europe..
There is some useful information about the topic of early printing in the following link, in which China is given due credit:
There were some differences or improvements in Guttenberg’s design, relating to the fact that in Germany there was an alphabet whereas in China there were characters. Here is a brief comment in that regard:
“Gutenberg invented the technique of making injectable molds for reuseable individual letter-casts, a technological innovation.”
Well, you’re correct that Italy has more human-made UNESCO World Heritage Sites than China which still has many archaeological sites yet to be inscribed as UNESCO World Heritage Sites. The Archaeological Ruins of Liangzhu City, for example, was listed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site only in 2019 while the Sanxingdui Ruins in Sichuan has applied for but has not yet received approval as a UNESCO World Heritage Site. The difference between Italy and China is that Italy’s UNESCO World Heritage Sites have all been listed a long time ago while China’s UNESCO World Heritage Sites have been listed only in the past few decades. Over time, China’s human-made UNESCO World Heritage Sites will inevitably surpass that of Italy given China’s size and 5,000-year old civilization.
It is unclear whether you posted your response to an earlier comment rather than a subsequent one because the latter comment may not have been made public yet. There really ought to be two time stamps for messages: submitted and publicly released.
I referred to Chines capital cities because this information was conveniently available. I mentioned some European cities because they were historically significant and I have personally visited them.
Yes; these are important features of a vibrant and technically advanced civilization. Clock and bell towers are not so much about “delight” but are useful to convey time and provide good views from the top, which is important in flat regions.
Well, as I’ve tried to emphasize, I’m certainly no expert on these AI issues, and don’t have any interest in trying to wade through all the articles you linked arguing that DeepSeek’s achievement isn’t a big deal and it was mostly achieved through copying and fraud. Other commenters have been making very similar sorts of arguments, saying are certain that the cost and the number of chips used were vastly higher than the alleged claims.
But the New York Times is always intensely hostile to China and Chinese achievements and runs endless stories about all the problems in that country, and the fraud behind its supposed success.
Yet here’s what its Tech columnist just published:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/03/podcasts/the-daily/china-ai-deepseek.html
Unless I’m mistaken since DeepSeek is open source, all the AI experts can go through it and see exactly how it works. If your arguments were correct to any appreciable degree, I really think they would have been passed along to the Times columnist and he would have highlighted them.
China has lots of archaeological sites that are untouched. For reasons that had to do with either politics during Mao’s Era or economics during Deng’s era, Chinese authorities had ignored the cultural heritage of China as manifested in those archaeological sites. But under Xi, China has put a renewed interest on preserving and renovating its 100,000 archaeological sites in order to revitalize China’s 5,000-year old Civilization. In fact, recent discoveries such as the Archaeological Ruins of Liangzhu City was listed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site only in 2019, as described below:
Based on the Archaeological Ruins of Liangzhu City carbon-dated to circa 3,300-2,300 BCE, Chinese historians have now revised the earliest date for the origins of Chinese Civilization to sometime around 3,300 BCE which is more than 1,000 years earlier than thought.
https://united24media.com/latest-news/russian-state-tv-claims-chinas-deepseek-ai-is-built-on-soviet-era-code-from-1985-5557
Sure, dumdum.
The Chineses general had two years to witness the USA’s disastrous reaction to 9/11: two costly and futile Vietnam-like quagmire wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq guaranteed to quickly sap our strength.
The general probably deducted that with America fighting the Jews wars through doing the Jews’ multi-trillion dollar bidding in the Middle East, combined with the ever-expanding federal, state, and local government incompetence of affirmative action hiring, that America’s golden days were numbered.
It’s very likely that deepseek is using outputs from other chat bots to train their model and to help pre-process data. The catch is that everyone training an LLM is using existing LLMs to get better data. Even openai almost certainly used gpt-3 to get better data for gpt-4.
If your ultimate goal is to make a chat bot, pretending that chat bots don’t already exist during development would be totally nuts.
He would have been more accurate if he had written a book called “The Middle Eastern Origins of Western Civilization”. LOL!!!!!!!!!
Both Agriculture and Metal Working originated in the Middle East/Egypt and appeared in Chinkland hundreds of years afterwards.
As for those 49 Heritage sites in China, it is an absolutely PITIFUL number.
China has 3.7 million square miles … around the same as ALL of Europe, meaning Heritage sites per square mile, is WAY WAY lower then in Europe. ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!
The linked articles were not that long. They only take a few minutes to read. The Dave’s Garage video was long, I’ll admit, but fun. But come on! Isn’t this your job? It’s your job to learn the other side! Spending 20 or 30 minutes and viewing those damning screenshots is not beyond your ability.
Why is that particular columnist a prophet? My arguments were certainly passed to mainstream news reporters, as you can find it in the Associated Press article from January 29: https://apnews.com/article/deepseek-ai-chatgpt-openai-copyright-a94168f3b8caa51623ce1b75b5ffcc51 :
I didn’t get these arguments from the conspiracy web, I got them from the mainstream:
Your quote:
The source code can not indicated whether their AI was trained on ChatGPT output data. The source code is the code, the logic. It does not contain the data. Logic and Data are always decoupled. Almost all of the AI processing effort is in reading tons of data, especially from the web, and forcing the monolithic AI programs to process it all.
Having said that, it’s not impossible to make the actual algorithms (logic) slightly better. But generally, there won’t be huge improvement there, the algos are what they are, they’ve been around for a while – they are just predicting text based on text. Some thing that is perhaps innovative is a way of reducing the supervised learning portion of the post-training steps by automating that somehow (https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/01/31/1110740/how-deepseek-ripped-up-the-ai-playbook-and-why-everyones-going-to-follow-it/) as well as the ability to compensated Chinese “supervisors” (i.e. people who are judging the quality of the model’s answers) less (cheaper labor in China). This part, FWIW, might also rely on ChatGPT.
But then again, the experts are still investigating, and they are not sure that it is as efficient as once claimed:
https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/01/31/1110776/deepseek-might-not-be-such-good-news-for-energy-after-all/
FTR he is a different Anon.
But, @Anon[382], you seem to miss the critical portion of the problem.
The problem is that, if ChatGPT builds models iteratively (a.k.a. building its models off of previous versions of its own models) over the course of [say] 10 years of company history, at the end of the day, the world looks at their newest model, and says, “it required you 10 years and xxx billion dollars to get that model.” Because, the world is keeping a cumulative tally on how much time and money OpenAI has sunk into all of its work.
But if DeepSeek comes along and does knowledge distillation on a ChatGPT that is the cumulative effort of 10 years of development, and it becomes almost as good in 6 months, the world looks and says, “OMG you guys did it so much faster and cheaper!”
When the reality is that they are accumulating the effort of another company – which FWIW is a company that makes knowledge distillation to be against its terms of service. I’ll repeat – it is not legal for a company to do this knowledge distillation on another company’s product.
Basically, it’s like any other Intellectual Property. The hard part is getting it right the first time. Once a thing is made, one can copy it far more easily. So IP law exists to allow the originators to profit from the long, hard work they did.
I suppose there’s no point in quoting to you any non-Chinese source, since you would dismiss them as part of a great conspiracy against China.
Never mind that the groups that criticize China are the same groups that criticize Israel (Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch…), proving they’re not pawns of the US.
So let’s use what the Chinese themselves say!
The Chinese claim that the structures in Xinjiang called prison camps by critics of China, are in fact “vocational schools”.
How many people are in these “vocational schools”? Critics of China say that the number of people in the camps is huge, approaching a million (in a given year, not over the years).
Lo and behold, this dovetails with the number of people who according to the Chinese themselves receive “vocational training” in Xinjiang.
http://be.china-embassy.gov.cn/eng/zt/xinjiangEN1/202103/t20210310_10165104.htm
That number is, suspiciously, much higher in proportion to population than the number of people who receive vocational training in the rest of China, the difference being plausibly due to the camps.
So the question is: are those camps “vocational schools”, as China claims, or are they prisons, as the rest of the world claims?
They do look like prisons. They’re surrounded by prison walls with barbed wire and watchtowers.
But perhaps you will say that every image of the camps is fake!
So let’s see, again, what the Chinese say.
https://english.www.gov.cn/archive/whitepaper/201908/17/content_WS5d57573cc6d0c6695ff7ed6c.html
The Chinese say that all the time about these “school”. They make no secret of it. But if their stated purpose is to prevent terrorism and extremism, then they are not actually “vocational schools”. To call them “vocational schools” is Orwellian.
http://munich.china-consulate.gov.cn/ger/zlgxw/202011/t20201111_3466954.htm
Former “students” tell their story. Each one tells us that he was a horrible person before the school, each one tells us that he once harbored extreme religious beliefs, and that the “school” cured him of his extreme beliefs. Again, that is the stated purpose of these “vocational schools”.
How do people end up there?
The Chinese journalist says that the students in the “schools” have committed “minor offenses” (again, confirming that these “schools” are prisons).
And yet, as the “students” tell their stories, none says he committed a crime, or that he was put there because of something he did. This is strange, given that they’re trying hard to describe their past selves as horrible extremists.
In fact, some of them say they went there voluntarily, in order to cure themselves of their own extremism. That is not believable. Do you think that fervent religious believers go voluntarily to centers whose stated purpose is to rid them of their beliefs?
The obvious explanation is that people are rounded up and put into these camp, not for any crime, but for trivial reasons, which explains how millions of people end up there. This dovetails with what the critics of the camps say (that people are put there for wearing Muslim attire, or for being related to other people who have been put there, or for similar reasons).
Note that, according to other Chinese documents (see second link), people in the camps need not have committed a crime. They include
which of course can mean anything.
People use the word “Orwellian” and “1984” too freely, but in this case it’s appropriate. This stuff is straight out of 1984.
If they can do this to Muslims, they can do it to Christians, or anti-communists, or anyone else.
When will you guys get it that China is a tyrannical country, and that none of you would want to live there. Especially not Unz, who would not be allowed to run a dissident, free-thinking magazine. On the contrary, he would be put in a prison camp, to be re-educated.
Think.
Between 1919 and 1941 the US was, if not perfectly peaceful, at least the best it was since 1840 or so.
Ignoring the Depression — or just balance it against the extreme levels of wealth-creation of the 1920. They didn’t call it The Roaring Twenties for nothing. Money beyond modern imagining.
No wars. Refused even to join the League of Nations, an obvious trap. Speaking for peace-loving Americans were patriots like Chuck Lindberg, Herbert Hoover, proto libertarians like Ayn Rand.
Till the bombs fell on Pearl in ’41, no one wanted a repeat of The Great War and no one was shy about saying as much.
We need to recapture that — the ability to say no and mean it. No migrants. No foreign wars. No entangling alliances. That’s our true spirit and we need it back.
I know there’s plenty to admire in Confucius. However, I read somewhere years ago that he advocated cannibalism. Anyone else ever see this?
I’m lived recently in TW for a year. IMO, they have no will to take on China. And I seriously doubt despite the odds that the Chinese Han can stomach killing their brethren in TW. For the CCP Taiwan is used to whip up unity in the face of their domestic issues at home.
— random thoughts while waiting for my departure to Kunming.
Here’s a question for the discerning reader.
PPP GDP is based on US dollar GDP adjusted for “Purchasing Power Parity”. Why does the US have a “Purchasing Power Parity” adjustment in the articles chart when the US PPP adjustment is … 1 … “by definition”? ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!
In the article’s Part 5 there is a chart which lists US nominal dollar GDP as 27.4 billion and GDP adjusted for “Purchasing Power Parity” as only 24.7 Billion? Why???? Isn’t the US PPP adjustment supposed to be …. 1????? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Inquiring minds want to know! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would say that the whole article is as full of shit as part 5. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Specifically I take offense at the following
Hua doesn’t seem to realize that people get kidnapped off the streets of China every day and sent to work in slave like conditions in government “training institutions” complete with high walls, guard towers and armed guards.
“Unlike the Bible, it is still a required part of the curriculum for every school child (except during the turbulent times of Cultural Revolution). The revival of Confucius teaching is a big part of the country’s success.”
This is pure nonsense. Today, China is embracing Confucianism once again, which is good to see. But make no mistake, the CCP started as a party that prided itself on being anti-traditional Chinese values. The CCP holds Confucianism in contempt because it sees it as backward and the reason for holding China back from becoming developed. During Mao’s time, traditional Chinese culture was heavily suppressed, and no one dared to talk about Confucianism because it was politically incorrect. What was all the rage during those times was Marxism, Leninism, and Communism. In those days, anything associated with traditional Chinese culture was viewed with suspicion. Traditional Chinese festivals, like the Mid-Autumn Festival, for example, were not celebrated. The lunar calendar’s August 15th was just another normal day. Even though Mao composed some stupid poems, he wanted to uproot anything traditionally Chinese. At one point, even simplified characters were banned (with not much success), and people had to use purely pinyin, much like how Vietnamese write their language today. I still have a watercolor set produced during those times, and everything is written in pinyin, with not a single Chinese character. Even during Deng’s time, talk of traditional Chinese culture was still taboo. The party rooted in traditional Confucian culture is the KMT (Nationalist Party). If you are a stamp collector and collect stamps from both the PRC and the ROC, you can see how the ideologies of the two parties differ because PRC stamps from Mao’s era were all about Marxism, Leninism, and Communism, while ROC stamps often made Confucianism a prominent topic. During Mao’s time, there were annual parades in Tiananmen Square, and huge portraits of Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Stalin were paraded through the square. Mao even visited Stalin to celebrate his birthday and, in one of his famous quotes, said Stalin was the benevolent father of the Chinese people, despite hundreds of thousands of Chinese being massacred by Stalin in the northeast. When Stalin died, some citizens in Beijing were made to kneel in front of his portrait.
Those are great points. China really have alot of stuff to keep me visiting for many years to come.
I am sure you are familiar with the English saying “The proof of the pudding is in the eating”.
Isn’t it far better if you taste the pudding rather than limit yourself to endless speculations about whether the pudding is tasty or not?
Isn’t going to Xinjiang, go to the local restaurants, cafes etc. Pull out your translater app and have converstions with local Uighurs? Better than reading this theory or that?
China now has visa free travel for up to 10 days.
Xinjiang is also totally free from foreigners to visit. Now special passes needed.
There are plenty of travel videos by Westerners who have been visiting Xinjiang recently. They travel totally freely. No minders following them.
“But oh, these may be shills paid for by the CCP”…I hear you think to yourself….
So why not go see for yourself?
How can these revivals take place so prominently in China if it doesn’t have the CCP/CPC’s blessing?
Our good friend Pepe Escobar tweeted out this drivel as real news also.
“…The reason he fails to do so is because he is far too exclusively concerned with literary sources and with literary information. He says expressly that he is concerned only with “published information.”
This view easily leads to neglect of the real influences of Asia on Europe, since these arose from artifacts and technology, often received without any European awareness of their origin (as European men over recent centuries came to wear trousers without knowledge of their Asiatic steppe origin.)
In his introduction Lach makes the astounding assertion that “knowledge of Asia before 1500 effected no fundamental alterations in Europe’s own artistic, technological, or religious premises.” In view of the fact that Europe’s technology and religious premises until 1500 were almost entirely Asiatic in origin, this statement indicates a very serious deficiency based on the author’s almost exclusively literary bias.
While we cannot judge the extent of this deficiency until we get volume II, the first chapter of the present volume dealing with “Antiquity and the Middle Ages” indicates that this weakness could be very serious. In good, old mid-Victorian fashion, Lach starts with a reference to Homer and, on the same first page, begins his subject about 600 B.C. This omits the whole Asiatic foundation of European culture including food (fowl, swine, cattle, grain), technology (the plow, arch, wheel, weapons, etc.), and basic culture (writing, alphabet, units of measurement, basic religious and cognitive attitudes) from the archaic period (before 600 B.C.).
But even more serious is the fact that Lach’s discussion of the medieval period also omits the same kind of Asiatic influences (such as Europe’s basic religious outlook, including the heresies, and much technological innovation which, over the last thousand years, has embraced such items as horseshoes, stirrups, effective harnessing of horses so they could be used for heavy work, windmills, the compass and rudder, fore-and-aft sails, an efficient number system, gunpowder, printing and paper, steel-making, a variety of crops of vital significance to Western agriculture, among them those two indispensable legumes, alfalfa and soybeans, many food products, and much else).
Lach ignores most of this because be is not concerned, as he says, with the “impact” of Asia on Europe but is really concerned only with Europe’s awareness of Asia (that is why he wants to restrict his attention to published information), and he is concerned with “awareness” because his attention is still anchored in the area where it began, the use of Asia by men like Montesquieu, Leibnitz, or Voltaire as a weapon to criticize European culture during the Enlightenment….”
http://www.carrollquigley.net/book-reviews/What_the_West_Has_Learned.htm
“…Even in Parkinson’s day under the great Queen Victoria every school boy knew Ex Oriente Lux.
Europe’s peoples and languages came from the east as did the very basic attributes of European life: its food (wheat, beef, lamb, swine, fowls), its textiles (wool, linen, cotton, silk), its systems of measures (12 eggs in a dozen, 12 inches in a foot, 12 hours in the day and in the night, 60 minutes in the hour), its basic technology (writing, the wheel, paper, printing type, gun powder, the plow, the number system), and those three major targets of Parkinson’s antipathy, governmental bureaucracy, taxation, and state regulation of economic life. Even today, a London economic consultant wears trousers and a jacket slashed in the rear so that the sides will hang straight as he sits on his horse, attire derived from a Turkic cultural predecessor in the central Asian grasslands of two millennia ago…”
http://www.carrollquigley.net/book-reviews/New_Book_by_C_Northcote_Parkinson.htm
The Evolution of Civilizations
Tragedy and Hope: A history of the World in our Time
Weapons Systems and Political Stability
by Carroll Quigley
http://www.carrollquigley.net/books.htm
Russia has had smaller automated tanks and artillery for about 10 years.
Except it obviously didn’t work! Mixing in Ayn Rand Charles Lindbergh and Herbert Hoover is rather comical.
The USA is not a democracy, and it doesn’t matter if 90% of the people oppose the war.
What was done with “Covid 19” can be done with almost anything. Hermann Goering has a famous quote to that effect about war, perhaps from his trial in the Imperial City.
The opposition to the Vietnam War was not controversial because of popular opposition. There was popular (a significant minority) opposition to WW2, as well! Very few people dared to express such opposition! This is not to say there was not large scale opposition to the Vietnam War in the public, it’s just that public opposition would have had little voice if the war had been strongly supported at the elite level.
The Vietnam War was controversial because the massive pro-Communist lobby in the USA during the Cold War. There were many, many Communist sympathizers in the United States at that time, some in powerful positions. Not so many Christian gentiles supporting Communism, rather, Jews and Yankees.
Standards for economics, accounting and even technology keep changing, according to the whims of the Insane Terrorist Empire. Hua Bin wrote on the fraudulent determination of GDP.
The bias in favor of the history of Chinese civilization is fundamentally irrational.
It is undoubtedly a psychological necessity for the Chinese, in the West it’s rooted in Anglo-centric historiography and the latent hostility to the Catholic civilization of the Middle Ages.
For these people, “the Renaissance” really means classical enthusiasts and neoplatonist revival. And the Reformation was even regarded as the “end of the Middle Ages.” If you’re English and you’re going to say true Christianity was in abeyance for over a thousand years, then of course you have to start “modern history” in the early 15th Century.
Of course, the Renaissance was in actual fact the efflorescence of a fully developed medieval civilization. The same civilization that had embarked on the Crusades centuries before.
The Chinese asserting that the Renaissance began because of Chinese influence, and as a reaction to Chinese superiority, is akin to Afro-centrism.
When the “Enlightenment” “luminaries” (or later minor figures such as HG Wells) made a fetish of China and Chinese goods and themes were the fashion, it had about as much significance as the Freemasons making a fetish of Egypt.
I remember this announcement by the Rabid Terrorist forces a week after invading Afghanistan: “We have air superiority over the country”. LOL.
You deliberately forced Japan into war with sanctions and blockades. Moreover, you studied the ways and means of incendiary bombardment, in order to burn ‘…the teeming bamboo ant-heaps of Honshu and Kyushu’, as Air Force General Claire Chennault declared. In the end you burned one million Japanese alive in 66 cities. Bravo you ‘Indispensables’! 1919 to 1941 was just an hiatus in the USA’s war against humanity, caused by post-war lethargy, then economic ruin.
I don’t know what Russian TV said. The claim is allegedly from Liang Wensheng himself. Btw, if it’s fake, it’s easy to disprove, one only has to look at Glushkov’s body of work, the concepts he developed, then look at the concepts underlying DeepSeek and see that they have nothing in common. It’s pretty much as straightforward as Brigitte Macron proving that she has XX chromosomes.
At least one Indian tycoon (billionaire) too made the family fortune selling opium from India to China.
One purpose of the Jesuits’ visit was to investigate discrepancies (as they saw it) in the meticulous Chinese historical calendar. For potential differences, see First Millenium Revisionist’s articles on this site. The writer was really Laurent Guyenot, who later revealed his identity.
Godfree Roberts’ articles used to appear here. He generally quoted only Western figures on China. He travelled to some places purportedly harmed by the famine, and found no such accounts from the descendants, only that there was rationing. Keep in mind (a) official population figures do not show a drop (b) US and maybe Canada withheld wheat exports despite requests, the same treatment Russia got earlier.
Running out of the supply of silver (maybe from Bolivia) led to trying to replace it with opium, and then aggression.
Reporting on the demonstrations (“riots”) would dispel the dogma that China is totalitarian.
what a stupid question that is. why would the US want to start a hot war against china? all the US has to do is sit back and wait for the catbox that is china to collapse in on itself.
and unlike your dumb ass the big boss xi knows to watch his steps as he doesn’t need a few hundred billion hungry chinese taking to the streets because they don’t have enough to eat.
this whole idea of a hot war between the US and China is ridiculous on it’s face. it’s not going to happen, not unless one country or the other develops some secret doomsday weapon or, (and this is probably more likely), some AI machine goes rogue and starts one. BOTH PARTIES HAVE TOO MUCH TO LOSE.
Zeihan has been predicting China’s imminent collapse since 2005.
If you want us to take you seriously, you wouldn’t quote him.
And Gordon Chang too, for that matter.
What I describe here is unrelated to the issue of chips.
If DeepSeek learns from other models, it would learn many times faster. So, it could afford to use less amazing chips.
I will answer my own question for you.
The reason why the Yanks in the US Deep State can’t start a war against China is simple: the US military will lose against China in East Asia. That’s why the Yanks in the US Deep State tried to bait China into starting a military conflict against the Philippines by beating the war drums over the Spratly Islands since 2010. But American efforts to contain China by instigating conflicts in the Spratly Islands have only backfired as Southeast Asian countries have become hostile to the USA.
Both John Mearsheimer as well as Kishore Mahbubani have claimed that it’s too late now for the USA to contain China. Mearsheimer believes that US involvement in NATO expansion to the borders of Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union which triggered the Ukraine War as well as US backing of Israel in Gaza have tied down its resources in Eastern Europe and the Middle East at the same time that Mahbubani believes that China’s BRI has expanded its influence not only in Asia but across the world. Then came RCEP which came into effect in 2020 and now BRICS which expanded from four to ten members as of 2025.
The USA has become marginalized in much of Asia except the Middle East, especially after the withdrawal of the US military from Afghanistan in 2021. Now with Trump intent on gutting USAID and other foreign aid programs as well as reigning in the US State Department and other intelligence agencies, the time has come for the BRICS countries to plan a 21st future without the USA.
Thank you for your enlightenment.
You can find more impressive structures, and far older ones, in a single city in Italy. Vienna alone is 10x more impressive than the entire Chinese list (half of which is nature sites and ruins).
As usual the Chinaman does not care if he is actually rich, only that he is recognized as such by some “authority”. Apparently UNESCO is an authority when it is convenient for China. Otherwise we are just “evil anti China westerners with an agenda”.
It seems to me the Chinese have no actual feeling for anything. He can take a look at the Kölner Dome and feel nothing at all. But a shack in China? That is great art. Clearly superior to Western craftmanship.
I did the same thing here in Sichuan where my wife hails from. According to Western propaganda, Sichuan was supposed to have been the hardest hit during the Great Leap Forward but my own wife’s relatives told me that food rationing was enforced at the time which was quite unpopular in Sichuan whose fertile soil made it the breakbasket of China for millennia.
I also have relatives in Fujian where all they remember at the time was the harshness of their living conditions which included food rationing amidst material poverty. But despite that hardship, my uncle whose father was a PLA General from Northeast China who became a high-ranking official in Fujian had only good things to say about Mao. He also told me about how Fujian became a notorious hotspot for contraband smuggling for all kinds of luxury goods like cars, TVs, clothes, jewelry, etc. during Mao’s era.
Life was hard during Mao’s era but that didn’t stop the Fujianese from making money, a reputation they have earned as the “Jews of the East.”
Something as fundamental to modern European culture, such as the dinner fork, was also invented in China (link) — and of course not acknowledged as a Chinese influence on Europe. Who has done more stealing? Actually, the Wikipedia page credits the “Bronze Age Qijia culture (2400-1900 BC)” for the invention. But the Qijia culture existed in the Yellow River area, which is in central China.
The Europeans ate with their fingers, as nearly all the barbarians outside China’s borders did; they didn’t use forks until about the Renaissance. Perhaps Lach could be forgiven for not mentioning the dinner fork as an Asiatic influence on medieval Europe.
First of all, the Chinese in general are not making that assertion (as most Chinese don’t care). I, an ethnic Chinese but only one person, am saying it. Western propagandists like to conflate anything said by any Chinese with all of China, which of course is a lie.
Second, I am not the only one saying that China has had a massive influence on Europe. Here is what Francis Bacon, one of the top Western scholars during the Baroque period, said about the heaviest influences on European civilization:
Bacon did not realize (or at least didn’t mention) that printing, gunpowder, and compass were from China. But they did indeed change Europe massively.
This thread has many candidates, but this might still be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. We wuzzery of the highest level.
If China invented a fork they never used it. Preferring instead to consume their food in the most complicated matter possible.
And yet, these people cook their food in gutter oil and have the temerity to call you barbarian.
I see a pattern in all these pathetic attempts to present themselves superior. It reminds me of women when they claim to be stronger than men. Jews when they claim to have a higher culture than the West, or blacks when they fantasize about their Wakanda. The common denominator here is an inferiority complex. This type of condition is capable of producing the most fantastic delusions to protect the ego.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex
It’s curious to witness these yellow men with all their vaunted intelligence act no different than niggers.
Let’s have a reality check on the Chinese invention myths. The modern government in China propogates the myth of 4 modern inventions. These being:
High speed rail (actually built on Chinese soil by Germans)
E-Commerce (actually invented in England)
Mobile Payments (actually invented in Finland)
Bike Sharing (actually invented in Holland)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_new_inventions
Forgetting for the moment that their claim to inventing any of them is completely false, notice how these are not even inventions at all. They are more like improvements of already existing inventions. Nor are they particularly impressive. High speed rail is just a faster version of a 200 year old technology. E-commerce and mobile payments are just a natural extension of a number of existing technologies such as electricity, computing and the internet, all invented by Europeans. Bike sharing, pathetic as this might be, is merely a minor social innovation. Hardly an “invention”.
So unless we have a safe distance of a thousand years, where the Chinaman can more plausibly get away with claiming great deeds, he is rather modest when it can be checked and verified in the present. I suppose this is his cleverness on display. Still false, just a little less obviously so.
I think most people can agree that the most likely thief is the one selling knockoff Versace handbags in “legit Chinese shops”.
People’s Bank of China is a government institution.
Bank Of China (government bank) has 20% stock shares of LCFR :
La Compagnie Financiere Edmond de
Rothschild(now CEO: Benjamin de Rothschild). So, China government has deep relation to Rothschild.
See the following one :
【Rothschild Bank of China and
400 Chinese Billionaires】
－The Truth is LIGHT
🔶 https://ronaldwederfoort.wordpress.com/2017/11/13/rothschilds-bank-of-china-and-400-chinese-billionaires
Why do some historical facts hurt you so much that you need to use the lies-laced Straw-man Fallacy to smear John M. Hobson? Shouldn’t we, humanity, live side by side and help each other on this small pale blue dot in this vast cold universe?
Don’t you feel your European zero-sum, beggar-thy-neighbour and the-dog-in-the-manger, ‘God-fearing’ morally defunct evil ‘Puritan’ cult mentality is tiresome and toxic to humanity?
I thought 2000 years of Jesus’ teaching should have blunted Europeans’ (barbarians in the Romans’ eye) wickedness a bit, but it seems I underestimated the beast.
The difference is that I have evidence.
China did indeed invent the fork, as the Wikipedia article indicates (link). Earlier versions of the article (which you can access in the article’s history) showed pictures of the forks of the Qijia culture and Shang Dynasty, and they were definitely made in Chinese style. (Why were the pictures removed? Hahaha.)
China switched to chopsticks probably because they were cheaper than forks — and also probably because they were far more durable than the delicate tines of a fork carved from bone.
It’s predictable that Westerners should be defensive and reluctant to admit just how much they owe to China. You are demonstrating this perfectly.
This MUST be the stupidest racist cretin here. Chopsticks are fine for those who use them. Apparently this arthropod doesn’t possess the dexterity or mental agility to do so. A really FILTHY hate pustule.
Tastes vary. But I think even most Westerners admit that the Great Wall and the Grand Canal are far more impressive then anything in Italy. Both are UNESCO world heritage sites.
As for ruins, the Grand Canal is still in heavy use today. And anything ancient tends to show its age; the Colosseum in Rome certainly does, though it is centuries younger than the Great Wall.
I think you’re barking at the wrong tree. I was rebutting a claim made by a poster on this thread that China lacks the material evidence to prove its 5,000-year old Civilization. To which I replied by citing China’s UNESCO World Heritage Sites as material evidence of its 5,000-year-old Civilization. Then somebody said that China’s UNESCO World Heritage Sites include natural sites, to which I replied that lots of China’s human-made archaeological sites have yet to be discovered, unearthed and renovated. Of course, I cited the UNESCO World Heritage Sites as indicative of the international recognition of China’s 5,000-year-old Civilization because if I had cited any Chinese organization, people like you would have readily dismissed it as Chinese propaganda.
This dirty troll is obviously a fan-thing of the ETIM jihadist butchers who terrorised Xinjiang and other places in China, and Thailand in one attack, and who the Chinese Government crushed, returning Xinjiang to peace and growing prosperity. In other words another brainwashed Sinophobe cunt.
Has Been, you plainly hold the Chinese in contempt, in comparison to ubermensch Europeans like your odious self. Plainly racist arrogance and contempt, and typical mendacity to boot. No doubt you hold India in similar disdain as well.
That is simply not true. China does claim advantages in all four areas, but does not claim them as Chinese inventions.
You can’t dispute what Francis Bacon wrote in 1620, that Chinese inventions revolutionized European life. So you put up a false strawman and attack that instead. The Strawman tactic is usually considered dishonest.
xcd said
antibeast said
What is wrong with you murder-apologists? You’re now denying that Mao caused a world-record famine?
The People’s Republic of China performs a population census each decade. Every census they’ve done since the 1960s shows about 40M people who had been born around 1960 being “missing”, presumably having died of starvation as vulnerable infants. As noted above in a comment by HuMungus, Wikipedia has population age pyramids from every Chinese census at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China . Here’s a Link to a graph of the latest results from the 2020 Chinese census:
By Rickky1409 – Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, Link
60 years later, the horrific famine is still visible in this graph, showing tens of millions of missing 59, 60, 61, and 62 year olds. This is the Chinese government reporting this, not anti-China propagandists. Don’t you believe the Chinese government when they say that Mao starved 40M people to death?
He said no such thing. You even admitted as much in that comment. Another blatant lie. Pure, shameless deception. And now you are trying to misdirect the conversation by claiming I am dishonest.
Never trust a man with black hair. These are words to live by.
Another blatant lie from you. Here it is from the horse’s mouth, in your own language:
The country that once had the “Four Great Inventions” has now opened up a new path. High-speed rail, online shopping, mobile payment, and shared bicycles have become recognized as the “New Four Great Inventions”, which not only let the world feel the convenience and intelligence of Chinese life, but also let China return to the center of the world stage in a new round of technological revolution.
Perhaps for many Chinese people, the comfort and convenience brought by the high-speed rail era have long been taken for granted, but in the eyes of foreigners, China’s high-speed rail is an amazing invention.
https://web.archive.org/web/20180503114715/http://www.xinhuanet.com/info/2017-10/27/c_136709316.htm
Notice how you take credit for these inventions matter of factly with no evidence. And you also try to deceive your population with pure lies about Western admiration for these “inventions”. One can well imagine how ignorant the average Chinaman is and continues to be when he is spoonfed these fantasies.
Exactly what historical facts are you referring to?
That agriculture started off in the Middle East/Egypt?
That metalworking started off in the Middle East/Egypt?
or That China simply has a pathetically small number of Heritage sites for its size?
You co-operation in clarifying this conundrum would be much appreciated. LOL!!!!!!!!!!
Matteo Ricci was not a robot; he stayed in China so long that he would not let anything that could help Europe progress pass and did nothing about it.
Besides, Europeans stayed ignorant and barbaric for tens of thousands of years, they even destroyed the only civilization, the Romans, they had. By logic, the Europeans could not self-boot themselves into the Renaissance; there had to be external guidance or force that led the Europeans into the Renaissance.
Just like Columbus, he could not convince the Spanish to give him a huge sum of money for his venture without showing some evidence he could hit big and bring handsome returns for the Spanish. That evidence was a world map of Zheng He’s ocean venture record that was stolen and sent to the Vatican as a treasure contribution.
I’m the “dirty troll”.
As I said in a previous comment, Xinjiang terrorism is comparable in scope to the terrorism we experienced here in Italy in the 70s.
I’m not a fan of those terrorists.
But if in Italy we had resorted to the same methods (arbitrary detention on a massive scale), it would have been considered an act of tyranny. Because, you see, here in the West we believe that people have rights, unlike in China. Fortunately we didn’t have to resort to those methods. Turns out you can crush terrorism without having to put people in concentration camps without charge. In fact, one of the reasons that in recent years we haven’t had the Islamic terrorism problems that countries such as France have had, or China, is thanks to the previous experience of our police in rooting out terrorism. Maybe the Chinese should ask our police how it’s done.
But my main point is that China is tyrannical. If they treat Muslims like that, they can treat Christians like that, whenever they decide. China is tyrannical. For example, everybody knows that there is heavy censorship over there. The Unz Review could not exist over there. Another example: no Western country would accept a one child policy. We would regard it as despotic. The Chinese have gotten rid of that policy, not because they’ve become more freedom loving, but because right now they don’t need it. When they need it again, they’ll go back to outlawing babies. If you’re a loyal subject of Xi, you’re free to believe that this stuff is awesome. But I’m speaking to Westerners here. If you’re a Westerner, you don’t want to live in that hell. So don’t pretend it’s paradise.
The historical facts are mentioned in John M. Hobson’s book.
Agriculture and metalwork happened in the ME; it has nothing to do with the Europeans. Are you saying Arabs, North Africans, Turks, Persians, etc, Europeans, and you are claiming the credit for their work? If that is the case, Europeans should open their arms to welcome more Arabs, North Africans, Turks, Persians, etc, into Europe. They are your next of kin.
Where are European heritage sites other than those caves, war ruins, and piles of stones? Europeans call those barbaric burnt leftovers, feudal, and serfdom artifacts heritage sites? Those are the evidence of European war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peace. Europeans indeed are barbarians as the Romans said.
Apparently not.
That incident was originally caused by the shooting and killing of gangsters sent by Soros in Beijing.
The protest movement was anti-capitalist.
Gangsters took the soldiers’ weapons and opened fire on protesters with machine guns, causing major damage in Beijing.
They even destroyed several tanks.
The protest movement itself has not been attacked by the government.
But, you know, what’s the point of me telling you all this, because trash like you wouldn’t believe me anyway.
Without stopping me from trying to kill your white-skinned bitch and your whole family.
杀你妈全家
杀得不够多
就该杀祖宗十八代，九族
Is that why you Italian gangsters run amok?
Stupid white pig.
If you want to say you’re an idiot, you don’t have to say it.
Besides, it’s not like we haven’t had mass killings of Christians in our history.
We’ve already slaughtered. You don’t need to think we could.
Religion is a backward thing. It’s rubbish.
It’s the magnanimity of us to let him exist.
With your opinion, Italy’s future is a bunch of junk.
傻逼
We didn’t advertise that we invented mobile payments, high-speed rail, etc.?
If you want to make your own history that doesn’t exist, I suggest you let me make up a story about you selling your asshole.
You are an antisemitism, a live fossil of the Third Reich. Jews have black hair. Following your words, blondes are Vikings who were known for being anti-Christ, bloodthirsty killers murderers, and thieves.
There are so many black hair Indians in the USA and Europe if you don’t trust them, why are you letting them in so many, they are curryizing your nation. Are you contradicting yourself, or you can’t live without them screwing you guys?
Actually, the US Census literally define North Africans and MENA people as huh-white.
https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html#:~:text=White%20%E2%80%93%20A%20person%20having%20origins,Middle%20East%2C%20or%20North%20Africa.
Which is why Trumpstein is so loyal to his fellow Hu-Whites in pissraell.
Must be a sad day for you realize that most Arabs and Muslims would stand with China before even giving a glance at you.
Is this the best these State Dept subhumans can produce? We should rejoice, the end is nigh. Good riddance to the JewSA.
You are projecting. Europeans are the worst criminals and tyrants in human history, the war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes against peace committed by the Europeans/the Whites are unprecedented in history.
Reading history, wars, thieving, genocide, crimes against humanity, and crimes against peace on an industrial scale are all committed by the Europeans/the Whites.
The Europeans are barbarians; they cannot stop killing each other to quench their bloodthirsty. Europeans should worry the Ukrainian War is going to burn Europe in a toxic nuclear radiation hellfire instead of fabricating lies to smear other nations like China.
英雄所見 🙂
This was my response to Western accusation that China operates a “wolf-warriors diplomacy”:
Francis Bacon wrote essentially what I stated, that Chinese inventions revolutionized the life of Europeans. He may not have used those exact words, but only losers pick nits the way you do.
I didn’t say that, not even approximately. As I have said, only losers pick nits the way you do.
Defensive walls and canals are basic infrastructure. Urban design and architecture would tend to be “far more impressive” from the perspective of most people. I have previously mentioned some of the features that I think ought to be included.
Readers can check out the Wikipedia pages of the UNESCO World Heritage sites themselves to focus on places that might be worth spending some time at:
China – UNESCO World Heritage Sites
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_China
Italy – UNESCO World Heritage Sites
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Italy
Many locations are listed because they have interesting archaeological ruins, palaces, churches, or walls. When making comparisons that go beyond individual structures, it is instructive to focus upon such terms as “Historic Centre” or “Old Town” or “City of” in the first column of the list.
With regard to the phrase “economically and technologically advanced“, which triggered my initial comment (#116), there can be no doubt that one of the most significant prerequisites for planning and coordinating social or economic activities, as well as scientific inquiry and technological development, is an awareness of time – the fourth dimension.
Though sundials and water powered clocks existed thousands of years ago already, more reliable clocks using springs or weights in conjunction with an escapement mechanism were an important development to display time more accurately. In this regard the astronomical clock in Padua (near Venice), initially completed in 1344, is among the oldest in the world that still works. The famous astronomical clock at the Prague city hall was installed decades later, in 1410. This was during a period when China was supposedly still more advanced than Europe.
Though a carillon with multiple bells is nice, a belfry needs to have only two bells, one for the quarter hours and a larger one to chime every hour. Wristwatches were first used widely by British troops during World War I to coordinate attacks. Pocket watches were not uncommon in the 19th century. During the centuries prior to that, when away from home, people relied on clock towers to know what time it was. The time could be seen from afar and heard at regular intervals. Clock towers do not appear to have been an important urban feature in China before personal watches became ubiquitous.
Where is it “verified” that DeepSeek piggybacked off some US AI?
I personally doubt that it did much of it, if any. The key is what the US AI companies have not said.
You mentioned “distilling”, which requires the AI doing the teaching to generate an enormous number of test cases with which to train the student AI. The generation requires a lot of computing power. The bigger the student, the more power is required.
DeepSeek, with over 670 billion parameters, is gigantic, about the same size as ChatGPT. I don’t see any US company claiming that DeepSeek has been hogging 90 percent of their computing power (and 90% of their energy bills) for months on end.
So I strongly doubt that DeepSeek did much piggybacking, if any. If you claim that it did a small amount, why couldn’t DeepSeek’s scientists have done the limited training themselves?
As for DeepSeek’s responses being similar to those of US AIs to an “uncanny” degree, well, when you tell the truth your flexibility is limited.
Apologies for the late reply. Earlier I was in a hurry to finish reading the thread and refrained from answering you. Now I can.
I clicked on over half the Chink sites on this list and found exactly ONE that was proof of civilization in Chinkland as far back as 3,000 BC. Now while this does prove that civilization existed in Chinkland that far back, it does not prove that ALL, or even, 5% of Chinkland was civilized at the time. LOL!!!!
It only proves that there was ONE civilized city in Chinkland at that time. Far from the dozens
of cities that existed on the Nile, and the Euphrates/Tigris river valleys.
Chinkland loses YET AGAIN! LOL!
and I take offense that the Mongol capital of Xanadu is included in the list of Chinkland sites, when it rightfully belongs to Mongolia! I believe that this is a glaring example of Chinese cultural appropriation … like skyscrapers, subways, planes, and high speed trains. LOL!
unesco heritage sites
https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/
https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1389
of course there could also have been dozens of Chink cities at that time as well, but this just goes to show that Chink tofu dreg construction existed way back then …. and NOTHING survived. LOL!!!!!
The Chinese do not have 176 million Blacks at 12.4% of their population who go around and do crime and destroy property and social harmony in China. The Chinese also do not have 34 million Jews at 2.4% of their population owning the media and the finance sector and the entertainment sector and non government organizations and academia and using them to propagandize the population to support infinite Pajeets to China and infinite money to Israel and infinite race mixing with Blacks.
That is the biggest reason for Chinese success vs America. The most effective thing that America could do to defeat China is to deport every single one of the world’s Jews and Blacks to China and watch as they destroy China from the inside like they have been destroying the West.
As I said, it is sad that China doesn’t get due credit.
On the 1440 anniversary, you did not allude to the Chinese invention date, but perpetuated the misunderstanding that Gutenberg invented the movable type press.
No doubt you did not know about the Chinese antecedent until I highlighted it to you.
This is symptomatic as to why so many Westerners poo poo the contributions of China, and dwell almost exclusively on Western (whatever that means) contributions to the world we live in
A book which I have not read, but from comments on this site, purports that the religious roots of European religions are Chinese! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!
First time hearing that Christianity or Judaism is based on some Chink root source! LOL!!!!!!!!!!
Needless to say I will not be reading such garbage! LOL!!!
Since historical migration patters are from the Middle East westward, then the people that made all those inventions probably have more descendants in Europe then anywhere else. So suck it up!
War crimes which you Chink Bastards committed right along with Europeans … or do you think all those Chinkland unification wars did not involve the wholesale slaughter of civilians??? LOL!!!!!!!!
BTW: Is your Chinese name Sum Ting Wong! Because if it isn’t then it should be! LOL!!!!!!
This issue has been addressed a number of times here at UNZ. The shortfalls in population figures for the years 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962 were caused by the massive drop in birthrates which the Western propagandists then claimed were “excess deaths” caused by the GLF. If you were not born, can you die? Well, according to Western propaganda, you have already died because you were not born.
Xi hates corruption and those mentally colonized by the West and acting as stupid lackeys like the Europeans and Ukrainians, i.e. selling their nation down the drain for the West to line their pockets.
任志強 is worse than Zelenskyy. You should be honest and courageous enough to say the Europeans and Americans hate Xi and CCP most because they eliminated every their comprador in China and made China independent and stand tall against you, the do no good European and American psychopathic murderers, thieves, liars, and hypocrites.
Who’s claiming the Chinese are superior? Not me. I was merely rebutting the claim made by a poster here who was dismissing China’s 5,000-year-old Civilization by making insolent remarks about the dearth of cultural heritage sites in China. He claimed that China only had Beijing’s Forbidden City and Xi’an’s Terracota Army but not much else. Then you chimed in claiming that the UNESCO World Heritage Sites that I cited as a rebuttal to him are superfluous because your personal taste in cultural aesthetics matter more than international recognition by UNESCO as quoted verbatim below:
Those are your exact words, not mine.
You guys have a psychotic obsession with China. Get some help because you guys need to see a shrink. LOL!
The vision of a Chinese coolie in queu playing with fireworks, pushing special Chinese wheelbarrow over mountain tracks, playing with magnets and printing his primitive characters with woodblocks, claiming superiority to the civilized white man and to be the originator of his civilization, is just too funny.
The Chinese are barbarians. As a friend of mine told me about the death penalty in China: “you don’t understand China.” Indeed, we westerners do not understand how primitive the Oriental mentality truly is. We have not understood the primitive mentality of the Jew.
The Japanese in WW2, despite their technological sophistication, were psychologically primitive. The same is true of the Chinese today, and it is evident in all of their comments here.
Certainly there is much to admire about the Chinese, and much to deplore about European man, especially in his current state. Nevertheless, while it is a grave mistake to denigrate Chinese capabilities, it is also a very grave mistake to overestimate their level of civilization. They are not like us, they are not our equals and must not be treated as such. Judging them as individuals, certainly we should be generous, kind and polite with the well-meaning. Judging them in the collective, we must be mindful that they are not like us and can never coexist peacefully in a position of equality with us. In that respect, they are like the negro. It’s a hard thing to say, but however much we may have an inclination of generosity towards Oriental man, it must always be kept in mind.
You are make false allegation. All human “inventions” are remixes of other people’s remixes with a twist. It is no exception for ChatGPT too. Its models are remixes of other people’s inventions/remixes.
ChatGPT has built a patent moat. DeepSeek is open source. America is a zero-sum, beggar-thy-neighbor, the dog-in-the-manger, greedy, and monopoly culture. By default, ChatGPT and all other American companies will sue DeepSeek until it ceases to exist if GeepSeek violates ChatGPT patents in any possible way. ChatGDP took no legal action proving you are making an allegation thru thin air.
If your story stands, why aren’t there any Americans who can do what DeepSeek did? Are you saying Americans are stupid or swindlers?
In fact, IP law does not protect originators anymore, IP law is a tool for the tech giants to bully originators into submission, deter invention, and protect their monopoly to rip off users. That’s why the US is falling behind in inventions because the invention is hard work while lawfare can make tons of money sitting in fancy offices. DeepSeek is just an example to prove the corruption and decline of the US tech field.
Your glossing over US Tech giants with fake news is a sad statement that the US decline is irreversible due to their citizen’s blinding hubris, always blaming somebody else fault, not their failure.
I explained this in my comment. I’ll explain again. “Piggyback” ~ knowledge distillation in AI. You can download a few of DeepSeek’s distilled Meta Llama models (link is pasted again below). Meta is a US company, Llama is their open-source AI. The genie’s out of the bottle, and since Llama is open-source, people probably won’t litigate. But the key fact here is that this proves that DeepSeek is putting a lot of resources into doing knowledge distillation.
https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/machine-learning/deploy-deepseek-r1-distilled-llama-models-with-amazon-bedrock-custom-model-import/
No, actually they did. That was the second argument I made. I’ll paste a different link, here, in case people can’t see the Financial Times one: https://www.theverge.com/news/601195/openai-evidence-deepseek-distillation-ai-data
Key quote is at the beginning:
OpenAI and Microsoft are investigating whether the Chinese rival used OpenAI’s API to integrate OpenAI’s AI models into DeepSeek’s own models, according to Bloomberg. The outlet’s sources said Microsoft security researchers detected that large amounts of data were being exfiltrated through OpenAI developer accounts in late 2024, which the company believes are affiliated with DeepSeek.
No reason to be particularly impressed with a particular number of parameters. Big numbers are normal in computing – takes a little bit of time to set up a large system but it’s also mostly automated at this point anyways. I’m a software engineer.
why couldn’t DeepSeek’s scientists have done the limited training themselves?
It’s time and money-consuming to do. Let me explain. One must think, for a second, about what a ChatGPT model exactly must learn from. At the inception of an AI, the answer to that was – whatever we find on the internet…..some ebooks…..idk anything.
They then had to develop code that could figure out the crap from the gold in the internet. There’s a human aspect to this, at the very end of the model training. They have humans judge the answers, and that judgment is fed back into the model. The AI has to hit all of those billions of websites, read and parse them multiple times…..perhaps ungodly numbers of times, and recalculate the AI over and over again (you hear the word “loop” being thrown around with AI to describe the incredibly long process of getting the AI to get smarter by rereading and recalculating things it has already seen, etc.)
This process is quite hard. And the sheer amount of time and resources it takes to parse the whole world is huge.
So, if somebody builds the intelligence based on the output of another AI, you can just imagine how much quicker that would be.
As for DeepSeek’s responses being similar to those of US AIs to an “uncanny” degree, well, when you tell the truth your flexibility is limited.
I don’t think so. The resemblance is more than just the central concept of the answers – it’s the wording, the sentence syntax and style. The AIs are not just solving equations, they are writing essays. It is because of things like this, that no other AIs resemble each other so much.
When we put this fact together with the fact that Deepseek even called itself ChatGPT frequently when directly asked about itself, and the fact that their company had put a lot of capital and human resources into being really good at distilling other AI models, the case of knowledge distillation is just incredibly strong. So strong, that there is no good reason to not take this side.
This is rather like a murder mystery where there is just tons of evidence, some of which is really hard to explain away, showing a guy being the murderer; and yet, the defendant still will not admit. At a certain point, even if there is no possible way to actually get your hands on the smoking gun, you still can make the reasonable conclusion.
Frankly, HuMungus is a cyber army, and I asked him to repeat that he is a patriotic American.
He was unwilling to do so.
Peter Zeihan is a charlatan. He doesn’t know anything about China. He doesn’t even dare to make a video on DeepSeek. Peter Zeihan is like a frog in a well, perpetuating his wilful ignorance of China on other ignorant people.
Follow Carl Zha instead for more accurate views on China:
Americans learning to Cook Chinese Food on Chinese App RedNote
Real China Shocked Americans on Chinese App RedNote
Chinese App RedNote Radicalizing American TikTok Refugees
Americans Find Heartwarming Stories on Chinese App RedNote
Obviously you’re mistaken.
Because whether it is atomic bombing or incendiary burning, the Japanese are not innocent.
When you see Japanese massacres in China that far exceed those of the Nazis, you know that most Japanese in that era did not deserve mercy.
After the attack on Pearl Harbor, they even made a similar declaration to fight to the last Japanese.
In retaliation, much of the bombing focused on Japan’s heavy industrial zones.
Of course, before the United States financed the Japanese invasion of our country, and then cut off the supply.
This kind of behavior is regarded as speculation and profiteering by businessmen, and it is also very immoral.
I kind of agree with that sentiment. But still, I don’t think you really understand what is being debated or what is at stake. Two points are being debated: 1 is whether DeepSeek shows promise of being far more skilled, and thus, far more likely to get investor funding. 2 is whether DeepSeek actually is as efficient as they claim, which also affects whether they will get investor money.
If DeepSeek is distilling ChatGPT, they can never be as good as ChatGPT, and in addition, they might not have a particularly great amount of skill in building “real” AIs that can learn from original sources. Lastly, they might not be as efficient as other companies, which could also produce the same distilled AIs at low cost if they also chose to rip off of the top-performer’s data. There’s also a quick point to make about the actual energy/computing efficiency of DeepSeek, which is being tested independently currently and these tests seem to show that it might not be as efficient as they have claimed.
Firstly, this isn’t “thin air.” I’ve put a great deal of time to post a lot of links with quite a lot of evidence, including some hilarious screenshots of DeepSeek calling itself ChatGPT (why can none of my interlocutors provide an explanation for that besides the obvious one?).
I’m not sure about the main idea that OpenAI must take legal action, since we don’t know exactly how they might actually take that legal action and win. After all, DeepSeek is in a different country, and this is a big deal with a lot of money at stake. Whose court would arbitrate? This is a company in a foreign country that has bad relations with the USA. This confrontation might be a serious problem. And, lastly, if OpenAI believes that it can weather the storm of this DeepSeek news, it might just be not worth it to go through the trouble of fighting this court case, because this court case is going to be incredibly expensive and long. It would be a huge distraction from the fast-paced work of building the actual AI.
I don’t really like to insult countries, but since you started it, I will. If the USA is greedy, I don’t know what to call China. Did you know China is the least charitable country in the world?
Because it is massively dishonest, and violates IP law. And, it’s possible DeepSeek actually exfiltrated the data to achieve this, with security evidence of exfiltration in 2024 existing, which would require an even higher and harder level of dishonesty. It might be genuinely hard to do this – maybe it was done by Chinese ethnic employees of OpenAI who were loyalistic to China and wanted to steal company secrets to make the fatherland defeat the USA.
My assumption is that Americans have no desire to do this. After all, we don’t steal IP that often. We aren’t the kinds of people who do that – I guess you could ridicule “honor culture” or the Christian obsession with “integrity” or something. We did not even cheat in school in the past, before mass immigration of Chinese and Indians brought us a cohort of extremely smart and domestic students who grew up alongside us and who use cheating in school constantly to feather their nest perfectly.
To make one more argument – if an American wants to win at AI, they just try to get a job at Google and OpenAI.
At that time, the United States was out of the great war situation in Eurasia and could use the continental balance of power strategy to harvest high-quality immigrants, unlike the current situation.
Now, the US is deliberately going to some countries to create chaos, but this is not likely to cause a world war level situation, so it can only absorb the lower quality of the population.
You obviously can’t make an analogy between the past and the present.
For example, many of the high-quality Chinese immigrants in the United States today were acquired because the country was in a period of turmoil. Japanese War of aggression, civil War, Cultural Revolution and so on.
Who would want to emigrate now?
Only criminals think America is a haven for crime.
I have not seen this argument before on UNZ. Why was there a massive drop in birthrates for a few years around 1960? If you could point me to some articles on the subject, I’d appreciate it.
How do you see Russia? Are they Asiatic barbarians also or some kind of white christian ally of the West against barbarians?
See this one :
【Tiananmen Square Massacre】
－ On This Day
🔶 https://www.onthisday.com/articles/tiananmen-square-massacre#:~:text=Neither%20does%20anybody%20know%20how,from%20800%20to4%2C000%20deaths
Official Chinese government figure is 241.
(other estimates range 800 to 4000 deaths)
Even if it were 241 deaths, it is that Massacre occurred.
Do you deny government’s official deaths number ?
You drunken stupor.
Crap of shit bitch.
True cause of the
Tiananmen Square Massacre
was the death of Hu Yaobang.
Have you read the above one: 282th comment related to Rothschilds?
It is truly important, I think.
Do you neglect?
Shit Bitch.
You’re projecting.
It’s rather China that has a psychotic obsession with showing off. We are just unimpressed.
The British “Conservative” Party even made one Prime Minister.
The moral here is not ‘never trust a man with black hair’ but ‘never trust the Tory Party’.
I just really *really* wish we still had the death penalty here in the UK – a view shared by the vast majority of the British electorate.
But, alas, in this wonderful Westminster democracy of ours, so-called ‘elected representatives’ not only utterly and contemptuously refuse to re instate it, they have done the very weaselly and tricky thing of signing over the sovereign right of implementing capital punishment to a foreign power which makes a point of denying it.
They’ve done exactly the same thing with immigration, another policy which is *ABSOLUTELY HATED* by the British electorate.
So no lectures on “democracy” please.
For what it is worth, one AI expert opined that when one AI depends on another, errors increase. I don’t have the reference.
Chopsticks may be too much for some of us. As a parallel, see how Indians eat flat bread or flat rice dishes in its South and North. The former use one hand, while the latter tend to use both.
Surely this MUST be a parody. Who are the ‘we’ that the Chinese, all of them apparently, are not the ‘equals’ of? You, a racist poltroon of low intelligence and moral stature, or perhaps Trump, or Starmer, or Musk, or Biden, or Ted Bundy perhaps, or John Gacy. And, I hate to tell you, Gomer, but the USA has the death penalty too, and loves murdering foreigners in their hundreds of thousand. No, this is SO POISONOUSLY vicious it MUST be a piss-take.
Listen you racist baboon, the situation in Italy and in Xinjiang, the second with a vast terrorist army, trained and organised by the West and Turkey attacking people even as far off as Kunming, killing dozens with knives, are vastly different. China acted wisely and well, and a few months deconditioning from jihadist brainwashing worked a treat. Let’s face it-you’re a race-hater only annoyed that the jihadists were defeated. A brainwashed, hate-crazed, racist like so many others crawling out from under their rocks.
blah, blah, blah… Who cares about stupid gringos like you? Here’s Hitler on the Chinese and Japanese:
No, this is really a matter of selective interpretation. Any misunderstanding arises from the ambiguity relating to the question of exactly what was movable, and in which manner, as I had already alluded to by having pointed out the inherent differences between individual letters of an alphabet and elaborate Chinese characters. Therefore, the main issue here is encapsulated by the word rearrangement because that is a key feature that facilitated quicker typesetting and subsequent mass reproduction.
Another important issue relating to movability is the question of how often the moved type element could actually be reused before it needed to be replaced. The original Chinese method was essentially printing paper upon carved woodblocks (essentially a miniature form of xylography), which would wear out more easily than the the type developed later, in the 15th century, using metallographic techniques.
I suggest you read the article on printing at the following link, where it will likely be necessary to first expand the entire text in the table of contents at the top. The Chinese woodblock method was likely very impractical – which is the most relevant issue of all – because it was not followed up, and further developments occurred elsewhere.
To better appreciate Gutenberg’s contribution you may want to read an article appearing at the site of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, which underscores the actual practical necessity of implementing concept through engineering.
Maybe you just ought to acknowledge that China had already lost its technical edge to Europe by 1400. Advances in clockmaking and watchmaking probably played a key role in shaping a more precise temporal frame of reference to facilitate productive activities that then led to advances in other fields. For instance, by 1505, more than a decade before the beginning of the Protestant reformation, one of the first pocket watches had been crafted in Nuremberg:
Wikipedia – Watch 1505
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_1505
This is very presumptuous of you, but you were wrong. I once took a class in Chinese History in college and also learned about offset printing before the Internet became popular in mid-1995. Also, I have seen many many pieces of art from woodcuts in museums. Since you are so keen to gloat about ancient Chinese innovations you should have simply stuck to harping about the practical invention of paper and ink with regard to the printing process.
These are features of a European styled civilisation, and is not universally applicable.
One cannot take features in one civilisation and expect others to have 1:1 exact facsimile.
If this were so, then Aztecs would be laughing at Europeans for not having dedicated spaces for human sacrifices.
Now coming back to the list of features you have requested. I wish to place the list in context of the differences of cultural personality between Europe and China.
For example your European town squares. These were traditionally places use for activities such as:
a central gathering place for community events, including markets, concerts, political rallies, parades, social and informal meetings, and other recreational activities
In a European setting, this makes sense because the group personality tends to be more boisterous and public in nature.
However, the Chinese people tend to be of more retiring personality and prefer more private spaces. Recreational activities which may take place in a town square in Europe, may take place in spaces such as gardens and courtyards in China.
In China, a large outdoor space does not have the same social or recreational meaning as in Europe. So large large outdoor gathering space would typically be used mostly for ceremonial purposes. There may be some used for markets etc.
Also statues statues feature prominently in public spaces in Europe as a political statements. In China statues tend to be of a religious nature and feature mostly in temples. Kings did not typically have statues made of themselves.
Conversely, the Chinese place more emphasis on more retiring spaces such as gardens and private courtyards. So there will be far more examples of Chinese gardens in say 1000AD than European examples. There will also be far more examples of ancient “hotels and restaurants” in China in 1400AD than in European…simply because the cultural emphases were different.
It would be unfair of me to seize on gardens and hotels and use it as “proof” of China’s superiority.
So one cannot expect to have a 1:1 translation
With this in mind, I will give you the equivalents as you have so requested.
Public squares – Community used spaces – In China this takes the form of ceremonial spaces.
Beijing
Statues – Statues
Chinese typically did not have statues made of themselves. They considered it vain and boastful. But statuary of mythical beasts, and religious statues for veneration were acceptable.
Obelisks – Memorials / Monuments
Memorial arches
Memorial pagodas
Water fountains – Public water feature for delight
Fountains were not favoured in China. Water gardens filled that role
Clock and Bell towers – Tall Public focal points of prestige
Bell and Drum Towers
Colonnades – Public places of respite and delight
Open air theatres/coliseums – Public places of entertainment
In open air theatres, notice that the stage tends to be roofed over. Notice the viewing galleries on all sides of the open courtyard. Coliseums in the European style was not favoured. The Chinese preferred more private and intimate settings.
https://ik.imagekit.io/tvlk/xpe-asset/HvKslvWhmTL6CPEh6lhu+vaVk2iApxOA5yQ1zO3vIGs=/v2/image/get/w_960,c_fit,q_55,wm_auto/s1.kkday.com/product_158016/20231207061541_Yw5f1/jpg?_src=imagekit&tr=c-at_max,h-500,q-60,w-740
Exactly what I want to say!! 🙂
You must not have read any comments in the entire thread. Or perhaps just lying again.
Equating a desert with the Parthenon might appear reasonable to a Chinaman, but to the rest of the world there is an obvious lack of impressive structures in China. UNESCO recognizes Sub Saharan “heritage sites” as well. It’s not much to speak about, but we have to be politically correct.
Same with China. They are vastly inferior to Western craftmanship by any objective measure. Holding up more weight, more ornate and with finely chiselled masonry. The Chinese Buddha statue might be large, that seems to be one of the things that impress the Chinaman, but being a millennia younger than more impressive structures in the West, it appears crude and megalomaniacal.
Of course, the Chinaman can not understand these arguments, because he has no way of qualifying beauty. They all appear the same to him. But this one is large, and it is Chinese, so it must be better. That’s the only way to explain how somebody, anybody, could make the absurd claim the Chinese Wall is more impressive than St Peters Basilica and that Europeans agree with it. Such a thought apparently appears reasonable and credible to the yellow man, but all it achieves is to betray his utter lack of feeling.
I’ve seen the Theodosian Walls. Built a thousand years before “the Great Wall”. Just as impressive, and it actually managed to hold enemies at bay too, for a thousand years. So not a useless wall, like the Chinese one.
Why do you keep lying? Everybody can read your comments and know with certainty that I am correct. They are signed in your name! Do you think anyone here will believe these pathetic lies?
Yes, the “blather” is from a Chinese newspaper. In your language. Which admittedly you did not even read. And seeing as all Chinese newspapers are under the control of the CCP, this constitutes an official position. And yet you continue to lie and claim you never said such a thing when you literally just did.
Vidi said:
I agree with the poster above who said the Chinese are psychologically primitive. This is like having a conversation with a child.
To understand why MOVABLE TYPE was named as an invention/refinement, we have to see what preceded it….which was carved WHOLE PLATES which featured an entire page. Whole plate woodblock printing was used in both EAST and WEST before the invention of movable type.
The innovation of movable type is that the page could be made up of its constituent parts. It does not matter if it is Chinese characters, or Latin alphabet.
I don’t even know why you are bringing this up. We are talking about printing here.
We don’t know if this was mentioned in your class. If it was, you had probably forgotten it because you failed to mention it in a very relevant moment, but instead dwelled exclusively on Gutenberg.
Further, given the widespread ignorance in the West that Movable Type printing was invented in China, I seriously doubt how much this fact is emphasized in Western education.
Of which, you probably saw Japanese woodblocks as an example of Asian printing.
This glossing over of China’s contributions by your educational institutions, is one of the reasons why Westerners continually poo poo China…. and this precisely why they are right now shocked by the rise of China.
Oh? I am simply correcting you because you were gloating about Gutenberg’s “invention of movable type printing”.
Public squares are not about “recreational meaning” but fulfill the important function as a venue for temporary markets and of promoting social interaction, exchanging, debating and reinforcing ideas. Authoritarian regimes, which prefer to keep the population in an insular state, do not like public squares. This relationship was in evidence at Tiananmen Square – the only truly large square you provided a picture of – in June 1989. For recreational functions, such as spiritual relaxation and harmony with nature, many Europeans cities maintained gardens that were often elaborate, including also with artificial ponds or small lakes.
I noticed that none of the urban images you presented show a clock anywhere, a topic I have written about in a few comments above. Nowadays the absence of clocks is common in casinos and most stores, where people are supposed to lose a sense of time.
Gigantic famines usually lead to a sharp drop reduction in fertility rates, and it’s obviously difficult to distinguish the impact of that factor from the simultaneous spike in infant mortality rates.
There is no need to distinguish them. Famine leads to starvation which leads to death, disease, and a predictable increase in infant mortality.
This is just another pathetic attempt to obfuscate the disaster.
I responded about Gutenberg because the year 1440 was explicitly mentioned by a commentator, without explaining exactly what might have been significant in that year, at least retrospectively. In that particular context whatever occurred in China a few centuries earlier is irrelevant. Regarding a subsequent comment, there is a big difference between inventing a concept that is too crude to be widely implemented and developing an actual functional process.
As I mentioned by quoting from the Britannica Encyclopedia, the Chinese invention was not very significant; it was essentially a dead-end because it was not adopted in its original form, probably because it was considered impractical. The reason Gutenberg gets nearly all the credit is because his method was far more refined, required technical ingenuity as well as manual dexterity to produce, and actually worked. It was a big engineering success and was widely utilized throughout Europe thereafter, so it had a tangible impact in spreading information and increasing literacy rates. In light of this significance in different outcomes, I find it rather surprising that you would still complain about China not having received sufficient recognition, according to your opinion. Such an attitude almost reminds me of the concluding remark presented in comment #280 above.
You seem to have a fixation with clocks. Are you grasping at something that would “prove” superiority?
The reason why China did not put much emphasis on clock towers, was because there was a system of calling out the time throughout the day with drum or bell towers. In smaller communities that did not have bell or drum towers, municipal employees would beat cymbals or gongs instead.
Whereas European churches rang their bells 3 times a day, the Chinese had a smaller interval…which ranged from 10 to 12 times a day depending on the time period / dynasty. With more accurate announcement of time for daily activities, there was less need for publicly accessed clocks. People simply needed to know when to wake up, when to go to work, when to have lunch, when to go home, when to go to bed.
If an individual had a particular need for more accurate time keeping than that provided by his municipality, he could use different types of time keeping devices. Sundials, dripping water clocks, incense clocks, candle clocks, water powered mechanical clocks etc were all in use.
I don’t know why you insist on projecting your European expectations/priorities onto the Chinese.
Duh, I had already explained to you that the Chinese have a quieter and more retiring personality then Europeans. All you have to do is to observe East Asian people and you will notice that they are less boisterous than others. This translates to the way to the way they buld their cities. Even small villages tend not to have “village squares”. It has nothing to do with authorities trying to keep them from assembling. Rather than gather in public squares and shout at each other and draw attention. They plot the overthrow of their rulers in courtyards and inns, rather than shouting in the streets.
Now when you have been shown that China had all the features of advanced cities similar to Europe, you now want to start denigrating her by calling her “authoritarian”. This is akin to childish name calling.
As much as I would like to reply to that, let us not start on a new discussion before we finish the last one.
If you agree that Chinese cities all the features of “high culture” that you observed in your Split and Cordoba, we can end that discussion and go on to discuss Authoritarianism and that Delusion-Called-Democracy. This one will be way more fun.
Huh?
It is in use till very recently, before lithography took over everything.
As a child I wondered around my grand uncle’s printing shop and marveled at all the little metal characters. This is what they look like.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/VRWafF__mla5s4w1P5GbrOIcNd4Q_wsDko29PSaZbaXDgImE4nnG--a4oFqVfq44901y-83kibDP9XYX20721WlOI5c3neSk2OI53oi8h3XuYF5uPpdR
Yeah. Your continued minimisation of it that it was a “dead end invention”…is proof that my complaint is valid.
If the death toll of the famine was as high as the Western media claimed, we would have launched an uprising long ago with our bad temper.
After all, historically, we have had wars and uprisings for most of the 2,500 years except for the years of CPC rule.
Besides, even if that many people did die, it was a natural disaster. Leaders have nothing to do with it.
The Yellow River, an overland river, is flooded several times a year. In the American rescue model, if Westerners lived here they would be feeding the fish in the river.
But it doesn’t matter. Let them smear.
They better think we’re not all the murderers they think we are.
说真的，有时候真觉得西方媒体嘴欠，应该找点刺头杀杀全家。
Anon[387]’s comment is a typical CIA, NED, Western NGOs and MSM style thru the thin air allegation, full of suggestions, implication, hearsay and fabrications with no proofs.
Evidence 1. is a fabrication. The blur screenshots showed no proof they were from DeepSeek. The allegation was a false flag op conducted by the poster via story telling. Anon[387] should verify the allegation himself on DeepSeek and OpenAI, and post the verification result here to be scrutinized for its credibility. Anon[387] uses a lie to support his false allegation is shameful double fallacy act.
Evidence 2. OpenAI claimed DeepSeek distill from it. By AI Distill definition, DeepSeek is a student model or a subset of OpenAI, at best a student model only can reach 80% of the capability and quality of Open AI. If DeepSeek’s security risk exits it inherits from OpenAI. Why is OpenAI’s security risk not a security risk, but only one of its student models is a risk. OpenAI and Anon[387] commit a double standard fallacy, hence their credibility is not trustworthy.
If DeepSeek distills from OpenAI, please show proof that DeepSeek and Open AI process the same security risk. Besides this allegation was a hearsay story spread by Financial Time (a fake news MSM). Evidence 2 is another treating lie as fact allegation.
Evidence 3. Originality AI investigation is a Rube Goldberg machine operation to misled the public and hide OpenAI incompetence and unscrupulous activities. DeepSeek published its source code openly for everybody to see. OpenAI needs to published its source code openly for everyone to see and compare. Let the evidence to tell whether DeepSeek copies and/or distills OpenAI.
DeepSeek is not afraid to be checked by posting its codes online, why can’t the Americans like Anon[387] be as honest as DeepSeek? What are the Americans afraid of? Why do the Americans resort to dubious and multi-layer implications to form their allegations? Because the Americans are cheaters and thieves, so they have to use lies aggressively to hide their tracks?
The people in the West are big-mouth sheeple, other than the French Revolution there has been no people revolution to fight for justice and their welfare in the history of the West despite the people being mistreated, abused, and exploited by their feudal lords as slaves and serfs.
I do not agree at all, nor would most other objective observers. I think you are delusional. I doubt anyone will come to your assistance with proof after taking a look at these two old cities on the Internet.
Leaving aside the archaeological ruins of Salona – a Greek city that purportedly had a population of 60 thousand people around 200 BC, with a coliseum and amphitheater – which I visited just outside the city, Split itself is more interesting than anything that I have seen in the pictures of Chinese cities. Much of the old town is within the former palace of the Roman emperor Diocletian (284-305). There is a very old bell tower, St. Domnius, 60 m high, which I have walked up. It was built in 1100. Here is a link:
https://nada4.wixsite.com/split-croatia/cathedralbelltowerstdomnius
Córdoba was a Carthaginian settlement conquered by Romans in 206 BC. The estimated population in the 9th century ranges between 75 and 106 thousand, according to Wikipedia, which says that in the 10th and 11 the century it was one of the most advanced places in the world, a center of learning with 80 libraries. The bell tower, which I have visited, is 54 m high, at the top of which I have been, was initially built in tghe 9th century. Here is a link to information about the tower
https://www.thenotsoinnocentsabroad.com/blog/torre-campanario-de-crdoba-scaling-the-heights-of-the-towns-tallest-landmark
Both the old towns of Split and Córdoba are UNESCO World Heritage sites. Homes in the old town of Córdoba have nice courtyards with lush plants. There is also a very nice garden with water fountains.
Image – Garden of Alcazar de los Reyes
Hahaha. OpenAI stole Microsoft’s data, and for some reason Microsoft blames DeepSeek instead. Tell me another one.
Well congratulations. One of my tasks at work is to be a systems programmer. I hope that as a software engineer you understand quadratic, cubic, and exponential scaling. You would be utterly incompetent if you didn’t — and you did not seem to realize that AI training is probably not an O(n) process.
I don’t know exactly how computing needs scale with the number of AI parameters, but I suspect it’s at least quadratic. So DeepSeek’s 670 billion parameters makes it at least 670^2 or over 440,000 times more difficult to train than an model with a billion parameters.
I don’t see Microsoft complaining about an enormous spike in their electricity bills.
Quicker but still expensive. I say again, I don’t see Microsoft complaining about the drain on their electric bills.
Evidence? This is what propagandists would say.
You mean China built 40,000 kms of high-speed rail lines in the last decade because China wants to show off to the world?
Really?
China is not interested in a pissing contest as to who is number one in the world. All that China had wanted to do was to solve its social, economic and environmental problems caused by decades of breakneck growth since the 1990s. Quite fortuitously, the GFC in 2008 forced China to drastically change its business model by refocusing on its domestic market instead of serving export markets. That’s what prompted China to fastrack its infrastructure program by building its high-speed rail lines in inland provinces. And 4G/5G telecommunications networks. And nuclear, solar, wind, advanced coal power plants. And so on. Along the way came the Mobile Internet, EV, AI, Smartphone, Cloud, Drone and Robotics Revolutions where China leads the world today.
If people like you have a problem dealing with China’s success in solving its social, economic and environmental problems through its technological, industrial and infrastructure achievements, then you are the problem. Not China.
China still has lots of social problems such as socio-economic inequality, cultural nihilism, amoral materialism, etc. as well as economic problems such as property speculation, industrial overcapacity, technological dependency, etc. But China has already solved its environmental problems such as air pollution with the rapid adoption of EV and the mass buildout of HSR/LRT/MRT lines.
As you can see, the Chinese authorities have their hands full. And that’s why they don’t have the time to sit on their desks everyday and ask themselves: “how do we show off to the world?”
Get it, bro?
You are projecting. If China had an obsession with showing off, it would have announced its 6th generation fighters with blaring trumpets. Instead, China has officially said not a word. It merely flew the new fighters over some population centers. It was the West that had a sudden panic attack. As far as I know, to this day China has made no official announcements about the new jets.
Yes, the West pretends to be unimpressed, but the huge sensation the new fighters made in Western media gives the lie to your assertion.
There is even some quibbling (from the West of course) about the definition of 6th generation fighter. As far as I’m concerned, if the new fighter jets can easily defeat the fighters of all previous generations (and they can), then the new jets belong to a different, higher generation.
LOL! LOL! LOL!
Yes, that had occurred to me as a likely explanation for four years of Chinese women not having children: when animals starve, the females turn off their reproductive systems because this both saves the mother’s energy and the offspring born during famines are often too damaged to survive. So, severe hunger could have made Chinese women too malnourished to bear children, but then they might have recovered their fertility after the famine ended. I suppose you could say starving people so severely that they can’t have children is “better” than starving them so severely that they die, but it’s still pretty bad. Is this what fans of Mao really say in his defense? I was hoping for an explanation of the low birthrates that was a little less gruesome.
Well, your comments, those of the other Chinese and sinophiles here do sound like you’re in a pissing contest, the very comment to which I reply is yet another example of trying to show off and you obviously feel butthurt that people aren’t wonderstruck by China’s achievements. You are entitled to be in awe, we are entitled to be unimpressed and we are entitled to dislike the Chinese character and ways. Cope with it.
Panicking? ROTFLMAO. And what is your comment if it isn’t bragging?
I am quite willing for others to read what I have written — and then judge who is lying.
You’re the one trying to change the topic of discussion from China’s UNESCO World Heritage Sites to your personal taste in cultural aesthetics. For your information, the Chinese authorities in charge of preserving, renovating and submitting the archaeological sites in China are interested in selecting its UNESCO World Heritage Sites only for its cultural value and historical significance, not for the touristy purpose of pleasing foreigners. China has no interest whatsoever with turning its UNESCO World Heritage Sites into tourist traps.
Your thinking is childish. If you want touristy kitsch, go to Las Vegas or Disneyland which might appeal to your personal taste.
Btw, we didn’t keep pigs together, I am not your “bro”. Keep your familiarities for your kin.
I wanna ask you a question with hundreds of thousands of indian programmers why arent therte many AI researchers of india origin most are eastern europeans and chinese yet there are many indians in lead positions insteadf of chinese of are infinetely more capable.
Try some introspection before calling anyone childish b/c your writing style is idiosyncratic to sixth-formers, definitely not to mature people.
Yes. TWO different 6th generation jets appeared on Mao’s birthday. China evidently had the capability to create two completely different designs simultaneously — both of them superior to anything in the US. One of them, the J-36, even has three engines (compared to one engine for the F-35). There was a lot of moaning in the USA about falling permanently behind China.
I may have said a thing or two, but as I noted China officially has said not a word about the 6th generation fighters. The official Chinese silence is about as far from bragging as it is possible to get.
I’m not trying to do anything Wang. I am showing people the reality behind your UNESCO argument. Some deserts, some ruins, a wooden town and a Buddha statue. This is what you claim is superior to all the cultural wealth of the West. You can think what you want, but I know what people will think when they go and check out the Chinese UNESCO list.
China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_China
Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Germany
You have to wonder at the process when these feeble arguments start to crystallize in the Chinaman’s brain. Is he really blind? Or does he count on dumb whitey to accept the claims at face value?
This is a good example. Chinaman sees somebody talking about the Kõlner Dome and he thinks Las Vegas and Disneyland is a legitimate comeback. I am starting to think that these people are actually insane. Or perhaps just so monstrously arrogant they think everybody else is a retard.
China sits back and keeps its aims to itself, while the Yankee Lennie Smalls rage in their brain damaged way, while their George Milton, Israel, tries to keep them in line. Steinbeck knew his own country well.
Yay, Has Been-Whitey GOOD, Chinky NO GOOD. You are that simple-mindedly race hating and contemptuous. No wonder you’re a Banderite. Another Biletsky, itching to join the Ukrainian nation’s mission ‘….to lead the white races of the world in a final crusade…against the Semite-led untermenschen’. GO Has Been-no wonder you hate the Chinese so much.
Has Been is a Banderite therefore a really VICIOUS White supremacist hate pustule. Denigrating China, the Chinese and Chinese civilization is second nature to him.
The US has flown around a dozen testbeds for 6th Gen technology
Certainly not in engine technology … or electronics … or for that matter networking weapons. LOL!!!
In needs 3 because Chinese engines suck donkey balls. They are even worse than Russian engines. The life expectancy of a Chink engine is 1,000 hours, a Russian engine 2,000 hours and a US engine 6,000 hours before replacement. LOL!!!!!!!!
Not from me! LOL!!!!!!!!!!! I tend to keep in mind that China copies all of its weapons, and that a copy is always inferior to the original. LOL!!!!!
The official Chink channels have not said a thing because there is nothing to say.
Let us not forget that the ONLY country that has purchased the much touted J-35 (formerly the J-31) is Pakistan … and they are purchasing it only because the Chinks are loaning them ALL the money! Even Chinkland does not want that dismal failure of a jet. ROTFLMAO!!!!!!
I wish it did.
In light of my quote from the Britannica encyclopedia, whatever you claim was still used “very recently” is obviously a different implementation of the original woodblock process, which was abandoned. It is likely more similar to the Korean developed, which came into use much later. Since those pieces in the image you linked to are of metal, as you said, you were basically confirming the difference.
Aside from that, the issue of interest in printing is mass production, not limited artwork prints, for which some artists may still use wood. Also, lithography was invented in the late 18th century, at the very beginning of the industrial age, and already began to be used widely in the early 19th century, which I do not consider to be “very recently“.
Fine. One day we’ll kill 300 white spies, and then we’ll cut off the heads and make a hill for you to see.
Let us agree to disagree.
You are presumptous to use the word “most”. To you Westerners, “most” means the West. You forget that the West only makes up 12% of the world population.
Again you project out of your Western taste that you have gown up with.
I have only shown you pictures of the specific elements of cities because that is what you wanted to see.
Even in its present state, it has plenty of pretty urban spaces. As China continues to get affluent, it will be able to afford to spruce up many of its other old historic sites.
This is a taste of what is to come X 10 in the coming decades.
This is from a single small town in some far flung corner of China.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT1kCG7qXtosbOmkGyNzs-GYdjrdy1chqTE0Q&s
Hi Kicktheroos, I also wondered about the same issue. In my opinion most of the computer grads come from lower middle class families and their aim is to make money to support their families. So I think these guys/gals find it hard to continue the academic work. They continue to work in the industry rather than pursue research though it might be better for their intellectual pursuits. Thanks
”
Yawn. Anyone can attempt some tests. Wake me up when 6th generation fighters are rolling off the US’s assembly lines.
No. China’s WS-15 engine is world class, in some ways better than anything in the USA.
The J-36 needs three engines because it cruises extremely high, at the edge of space — where the air is so thin that the jet needs great velocity in order to maintain its lift. The three engines provide the necessary thrust.
The operational altitude of the J-36 means it can’t be touched by the F-35’s little missiles — whereas the J-36’s missiles will be going downhill and can definitely destroy the F-35.
Ignored.
The people in the West are big-mouth sheeple, other than the French Revolution there has been no people revolution to fight for justice and their welfare in the history of the West despite the people being mistreated, abused, and exploited by their feudal lords as slaves and serfs.
Ahem! The US Revolution! ROTFLMA!!!!!!!!!!!
The Balkans freeing themselves from Turkish domination also fits the bill! LOL!!!!!!!!!!
The Russian Revolution is right out as it ended up with the Russians in Communist slavery, while the French Revolution, in a decade, devolved into the Napoleonic Era … endless wars … and Napoleon declaring himself Emperor of the Frenchies. LOL!!!!!!!!!
Jesus Christ, man, cool it. Are you having a nervous breakdown or something? Let me try to explain the logic behind China’s policy on its cultural heritage sites.
As you might know, China went through a revolutionary period known as the “Cultural Revolution” under Mao’s rule during the 1960s to the 1970s when the Red Guards went on a rampage damaging many of the cultural heritage sites in China. After Mao’s death, Deng decided to open up China’s economy in the 1980s. The first foreigners to visit and invest in China were the “Overseas Chinese” who were apalled at the condition of the cultural heritage sites. Fortunately, most of them were not destroyed which allowed them to be renovated. The “Overseas Chinese” also contributed their wealth to rebuild their ancestral hometowns by renovating Buddhist temples, Confucian shrines, Taoist temples, etc. That’s why it took Chinese authorities until the 1980s to enact its State policy to restore, protect and renovate China’s cultural heritage sites. And this explains why the first UNESCO World Heritage Sites in China were listed only in 1987.
Of course, China was a developing country at the time. Lacking the funds, China could only start renovating the major sites such as the Forbidden City, Great Wall, Mogao Grottos, Peking Man Site and Tomb of Qin Shi Huang which were listed as China’s first cultural UNESCO World Heritage Sites in 1987. China also listed Mount Taishan as its first natural/cultural UNESCO World Heritage Site that same year in 1987. During the 1990s, more natural UNESCO World Heritage Sites were added to China’s list such as the Huanglong Scenic and Historic Interest Area (1992), Jiuzhaigou Valley Scenic Area (1992), Wulingyuan Scenic and Historic Interest Area (1992) as well as natural/cultural sites such as Mount Huangshan (1990) and Mount Emei Scenic Area & Leshan Giant Buddha (1996). More cultural heritage sites were also added to China’s list during the 1990s, viz: Ancient Building Complex in the Wudang Mountains (1994), Historic Ensemble of the Potala Palace (1994), Lushan National Park (1996), Classical Gardens of Suzhou (1997), Temple of Heaven (1998) and Summer Palace (1998). Up to this time, most of the cultural heritage sites listed were in Beijing which as the Capital City became the first to be developed. And then, as China started developing its inland provinces during the 2000s, more cultural heritage sites from Sichuan, Hubei, etc. have been added as well.
Again, let me repeat that the motivation behind China’s listing of its UNESCO World Heritage Sites is not to turn them into tourist traps in order to cater to foreign tourists such as in Italy whose well-known cultural heritage sites attract the most tourists in the world. Unlike Italy, China has no interest in pandering to foreign tourists by making its cultural heritage sites more aesthetically pleasing for commercial purposes. That would defeat the whole purpose of its State policy of restoring, protecting and renovating its cultural heritage sites for its cultural value and historical significance, regardless of whether they are aesthetically pleasing to foreign tourists.
This is my last post on this topic. Thank you and have a good day.
You forgot the part where starving/malnourished women go “dry” and don’t produce milk to feed the baby … and so the baby dies from starvation.
Why try to argue with a vicious, deranged, race-hating pustule of arrogant stupidity and ignorance? It only feeds its ego.
‘China eats the world’ as DeepSeek shows its strength in high-value sectors: Deutsche Bank
DeepSeek’s emergence is a ‘Sputnik moment’ not just for AI, but for China, which is ‘outcompeting the rest of the world’, bank says
The launch of DeepSeek has unsettled the world’s belief that it “could contain China”, said Deutsche Bank, calling the emergence of the artificial-intelligence (AI) technology the country’s “Sputnik moment”.
By characterising the start-up’s achievement as a significant turning point for the country, the bank goes further than Marc Andreessen, the influential Silicon Valley venture capitalist, who referred to DeepSeek as a Sputnik moment for the AI sector. The comments refer to Soviet Union’s launch of the world’s first artificial satellite in 1957, which instantly changed perceptions of that country.
“We think 2025 is the year the investing world realises China is outcompeting the rest of the world,” Deutsche Bank said on Wednesday in a report titled “China Eats the World”, seen by the Post.
The bank was already bullish on Chinese companies, but had been uncertain about what would trigger a global rush into them until now, it said. “We believe the bull market for [Hong Kong and China] equities began in 2024, and will exceed prior highs in the medium term,” said the report, authored by Peter Milliken, Hong Kong-based head of Asia-Pacific company research with the bank.
China’s dominance in high-value industries was expanding at an unprecedented pace, according to the bank. With world-leading companies gaining market share across industries, China was unlikely to remain a single-digit percentage of global market capitalisation for long.
DeepSeek’s overnight fame has led to a rally in Chinese technology stocks, while triggering a sell-off in Nasdaq-listed firms. The Hang Seng Tech Index, led by major companies such as Tencent Holdings, Alibaba Group Holding, and Xiaomi, approached a four-month high on Thursday after surging more than 10 per cent in the past two weeks. The broader Hang Seng Index also rose about 6 per cent. Shares of DeepSeek, founded in the Zhejiang provincial capital of Hangzhou by Liang Wenfeng in 2023, are not publicly traded.
Deutsche Bank’s report dismissed some of the concerns about Chinese stocks – from US- China relations to a prolonged property downturn – by arguing that they could have positive outcomes, even in terms of tariffs, which the bank estimated could end up being 20 per cent.
US President Donald Trump behaved more like a trader than an investor, the report said. “If so, expect him to run a fairly tight stop-loss limit,” the bank added, suggesting that Trump would adjust the policy if tariffs become unfavourable.
Concern over China’s declining population missed the big picture, the report said. China’s lead in automation gave the country a productivity advantage, it said. With programmes like the Belt and Road Initiative, China was expanding its economic reach to sell more to a larger population.
There are as many consumers in Africa, Central and South Asia, Asean, and Latin America as in China, and “if things get more friendly, as many people to sell to in India”, it said.
Addressing a common comparison, the bank said that China resembled Japan in the early 1980s, with rapid innovation and cost-effective, high-quality products, rather than Japan in 1989, when its economy peaked before stagnating.
“Like Japan, China has had an extreme property bubble, but not nearly as extreme,” Deutsche Bank said.
China’s home sales fell by 17.6 per cent in 2024 and are expected to drop 9 per cent in 2025, extending a deep correction to 56 per cent since the all-time high in 2021, according to a report published by Goldman Sachs this week.
https://www.thestar.com.my/aseanplus/aseanplus-news/2025/02/08/china-eats-the-world-as-deepseek-shows-its-strength-in-high-value-sectors-deutsche-bank
Chinese Showing American TikTok Refugees How They Live Their Life On RedNote
American TikTok Refugees and Chinese compares Grocery/Medical Bills on RedNote
@littlereddot
This deflecting comment is obviously just a wishful projection into the future because you were unable to meet my implicit challenge in comment #116 above, nor did you provide a convincing example whose historical prestige and architectural features at least equal those cities you chose to compare with, namely Córdoba and Split.
The following quote from Wikipedia under the heading “Architecture”, pertaining to the ancient city of Ping Yao, a UNESCO World Heritage Site – of which there are only a few preserved old cities in China with this status – reflects the implied premises contained toward the end of my comment #116:
“Given just how fast and eager China is these days to modernize its cities and push the architectural envelope, finding such a well preserved historic city in China has become more and more scarce in recent years. Despite the ancient city being in a state of disrepair, the old urban layouts and walls still can take any visitor back in time to the Ming and Qing dynasties from which the town originated. ”
In a subsequent comment I pointed out that the eight capital cities of China at a link I presented might have had some interesting structures (temples, palaces, pagodas) but overall tended to lack the historical flavor of certain European cities.
What appears most interesting about Ping Yao is its preserved outer walls. Historically, any larger and affluent city would have necessarily had defensive walls built around them, with a few city gates. These peripheral fortifications were torn down during industrialization in the 19th century. A few notable cities or towns in Europe still have these walls, for instance Ávila, Carcassonne, Lucca, Bergamo, and Nuremberg. Many other, such as Split, York and Tallinn, have maintained a substantial portion of their ancient walls.
You then linked to five images of the old town of Lijiang, featured as a UNESCO World Heritage site since 1997, at the southwestern periphery of China, in a region surrounded by mountains, not far from Burma, so we have come full circle because you had already cited this place in an earlier comment, yet you seem to be insinuating that this is just one of many other such towns. Due to the confluence of different cultures and religions, such as Tibetan and Naxi, Han Chinese may have actually been a minority here, so this aspect makes it somewhat special.
In terms of overall aesthetics, especially its canals and bridges, scenic surrounding mountains, cleanliness, music preservation, and multi-ethnic influence due to its location at an historical trade route, the old town of Lijiang seems to be the best that China has to offer, particularly from a tourist perspective, so one has to wonder exactly how and where this overall ambience, including the mountain views, is supposed to be replicated ten-fold, according to your imagination.
It should be noted that the main architectural structures in Lijiang (Mufu Palace, Wangu Tower and Pavillion) were entirely rebuilt in the late 1990s, in the wake of an earthquake, so the old town too was enhanced. In that regard, Lijiang could we similar to the old town of Warsaw, which also has UNESCO World Heritage status, though it was meticulously rebuilt after the second world war to maintain its earlier architectural appearance, as was also the case in Danzig (Gdansk). It would have been nice if there was a nice sculpted water fountain at the central square in Lijiang, but I could not find a picture. In Switzerland most bigger towns have a water fountain with potable water, as does Rome. And an ancient tower with a clock or at least bells is already too much to ask for anywhere in China.
Since Lijiang apparently represents the pinnacle of Chinese old town flair, it can be assumed that it gets crowded with tourists from all across the country, though I doubt it would be as popular and crowded as Venice as a tourist destination. Nonetheless, the manifestations of this phenomenon can not be ignored. From Wikipedia:
“The influx of tourists that followed the inscription of the Ancient town of Lijiang onto UNESCO’s World Heritage list has had dramatic effects. Most of the Nakhi inhabitants of the ancient city have moved away due to rising costs of housing and food items, only to be replaced by tourist establishments who pay huge rents to the Nakhi owners, now retired to the new town area. The growth of these tourism businesses is largely uncontrolled.”
No wonder so many Chinese tourists fly to Europe to experience the numerous existing displays of ancient cultural heritage there.
I don’t remember the specific context of the conversation, I am not against the death penalty in principle. This conversation was over twenty years ago, I suspect it was about the NUMBER of executions in China.
Anyway, his argument is that I did not understand why China needed so many executions. I think I understand better now. The reason is the incivility of the Chinese, which having read about Chinese history, I understand better now.
Sssssshhh, such beauties should be kept hidden from the evil eyes of the flyover states deplorables. The american huh-white hicks only know how to hate and destroy, just like their kike masters.
They’re much better appreciated by Hunan bandits carrying little red books, of course!
Instead of just “the compass”, let’s talk about navigation in general.
Instead of just “printing”, let’s talk about bookmaking in general.
In both fields, Europe was way ahead of China.
Even with printing and the compass, China could not have achieved what Europe achieved, because there are other, more important, more fundamental technologies involved, which Europe has always had, and China has always lacked.
Let’s start with navigation.
Look at this European map from the early 1300s:
It’s very precise, already as early as that era.
This one is a bit later, from 1492.
The Chinese did not have precise maps.
The Chinese would never have been able to make one, because they were so backwards, they didn’t know that the world was round.
THEY DID NOT KNOW THAT THE WORLD WAS ROUND.
Without the spherical model of the world, which Europeans have had since the Greeks, you cannot have the concepts of “latitude” and “longitude”, which Europeans also have had since the Greeks. Therefore you cannot develop a precise method to determine latitude using an astrolabe. Which is more important than the compass, since we can find the north by the north star.
Therefore the Chinese could not have had an Age of Sail.
As for books, the Chinese were set back by the lack of another key technology, which even today they still lack.
Namely, THE ALPHABET.
The alphabet was necessary for two reasons. The main reason is that, without the alphabet, there is not much advantage to movable type printing. The alphabet, combined with movable printing, enabled Europeans to print very efficiently.
The second reason is that, without the alphabet, the bulk of the population will find it difficult to master literacy. Now, it’s hard to obtain a reliable estimate of historical literacy rates in either China or Europe. But the main problem is that you can’t draw direct comparisons, because the gigantic number of Chinese characters means there is no clear definition of what it means to be “literate”. A person may be able to read some basic words, but not enough to read the Chinese classics. In contrast, a Westerner who learns how to read will be able to read anything in his language. This amplifies the usefulness of the printing press.
The superiority of the alphabet has been recognized even in China:
https://www.zhihu.com/question/36621372/answer/125962850
In addition, a key element of the Gutenberg press was the screw. The printing press comes from the screw press. Europeans have had screws since the Greek, but the Chinese DID NOT HAVE SCREWS until we taught them about screws. They did not have screws of any kind. Therefore they could not have invented a proper printing press.
I have already replied to #116 with #340. It is you, who refuse to accept my examples out because it doesn’t suit your taste.
You are totally confused.
They are talking about Well Preserved historic sites. State of preservation has nothing to do with whether cities had “high culture” or not.
This is a totally separate matter. You are clutching at straws in an attempt to maintain your image of a bleak China. If you want, we can discuss this subject on “state of preservation” after this subject at hand which is whether Chinese cities had aspects of “HIGH CULTURE” or not.
1. I chose this town, precisely because it is far away from the center of Chinese culture, far away from the centers of prestige.
2. I chose this town, because you were harping on pretty flowers in your Cordoba picture. Obviously you are impressed by pretty things.
3. I chose this town because it has been developed and made viable by INTERNAL TOURISM. People from other parts of China are interested to see the culture of the minorities. Therefore of course it will be one of the first places in China to develop tourism and be restored. In time, more places like these will be restored and fit for tourism also.
It is why I say that in a few decades, you will see at least TEN TIMES of what are presently developed.
Of course. Those buildings were actively being used before the earthquake. They are living buildings in living cities.
You seem to be trying to make the impression that they are fake.
Duh. Why do you think I say “far flung”? Do you really think that the pinnacle would occur in a border town?
No, they do it because it is still a novelty to them. They have recently become affluent enough to enjoy overseas trips.
The Japanese went through that same stage of their economic development in the 80s and 90s
The Americans went through that same stage of their economic development in the 50s and 60s
Again you are trying to impose your occidental expectations on the Chinese.
In Europe, fountains played a utilitarian function in addition to delight. They were originally sources of water for the city folk.
Lijiang is a mountain town filled with mountain streams with clear water running through it. Why the hell would anyone want to pipe in water to the town square, when clean clear mountain water is flowing all around?
In other parts of China, why would they want to have a measly little pool of water with a fountain on it, when they have magnificent ponds and lakes in their gardens?
You have a point.
Yesterday, I was having a chat with some friends and we were imagining what we would do with the money if we won the lottery.
Out of habit, I said “oh, I would do a world tour”. Then I thought again and said “No. Actually now I wouldn’t. I don’t want visit another Western country. The thought of doing so brings a distaste to my mouth”.
I wish the 15% would just decouple from the rest of the world and leave us 85% in peace.
I agree with @Top Lel, the Whites, and the huh-White are a ‘God-fearing’ morally defunct evil ‘Puritan’ cult, they will destroy physically and spiritually anything better than theirs or they don’t like. History has proven that their wicked zero-sum, beggar-thy-neighbor, the-dog-in-manger, barbarism, and greed know no bounds. Even the Roman Empire turned into dust in their hands.
@Been_there_done_that is drawing you in to feed the data that the Whites/huh-White’s target list to destroy physically, vandalize, and/or smear.
Do you really think they lacked knowledge of the alphabet?
China was surrounded by peoples who use alphabetic/phonetic scripts.
Mongols, Manchus, Tibetans, Arabs, Indians, Koreans, Japanese, Thais, Cambodians, Indonesians and Malayans all have alphabet/phonetic scripts and have all interacted with China for hundreds if not thousands of years.
An intelligent person would be asking himself “if China had contact with all these alphabet/phonetic scripts, why did it never adopt any one of them?”
When you ask yourself this question, then you will be able to ask the related question “are Chinese ideographic scripts really so inferior to alphabetic/phonetic scripts”?
@mulga mumblebrain is primitive and dogmatic in governance. Chinese learnt from history that the principle of establishing a prosperous and harmonious society is 亂世用重典；盛世施仁政，重教導，防患於未然。
When China was a victim of the wicked Western colonial imperialists’ barbarism, it was in chaos, the social fabric had broken down, and morality was in decline. It had to use 亂世用重典 to stop the decaying tide caused by the West, reverse China’s society back to normalcy, and then 施仁政 embark on rebuilding China back to an independent, strong, prosperous, and harmonious civilization.
The culprit of many executions in China was the West. As long as the world does not address and criticize the war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes against peace committed by the West and their accomplices. The world is still living under the Legacy of the Western ‘God-fearing’ morally defunct evil ‘Puritan’ cult dominance.
You are fabricating history by mixing and matching selective events and fabricated stories in the order that fits your dark medieval age toxic caste narrative, as well as claiming credits where credits are not due.
You claimed superiority because some items in the West were better than the items in China, but those items in China were the foundation of the items you claimed better to be built and developed on. Without the Chinese items as the foundation, the West could never have developed better items. For thousands of years, the West had no paper and printing is the proof of that historical fact. The West bad-mouthing the giant who lent his shoulders for the West to be civilized and advance is shameful and disgusting. It proves the West is the negative, destructive, and cancerous element in humanity, and detrimental to the progress of civilization.
We have a misunderstanding. OpenAI did not hire the Microsoft experts because they think Microsoft’s data was exfiltrated. OpenAI is saying that somebody might have exfiltrated OpenAI’s data, but OpenAI did not have the expertise to investigate and get proof of it (because they might not know enough about the Windows OS to do that kind of investigation) so they hired Microsoft experts to do that investigation for them.
https://www.techradar.com/computing/artificial-intelligence/deepseek-just-insisted-its-chatgpt-and-i-think-thats-all-the-proof-i-need
https://techcrunch.com/2024/12/27/why-deepseeks-new-ai-model-thinks-its-chatgpt/
I won’t split hairs over the efficiency debate; it’s not too relevant to the particular things that I am trying to debate about.
White Europeans were nothing more than White Slaves under the Roman Empire and White Serfs under the Roman Church. Literacy and fluency in Latin became the purview of the Catholic Clergy in the Roman Church whose institutional dogma required their lifelong loyalty to the Roman Potiff. Outside of the Roman Church, the White European Serfs — illiterate, ignorant, ill-treated — lived a life that was “nasty, brutish and short” as they mostly sold their White labor to or served as White meat to die and fight for their feudal lords.
Great! Thanks Little Red Spot! Are you Japanese?
Sir, any confirmation on your part that Mr. Sailer is leaving your fine opinion webzine? Is he truly not going to post here anymore?
Lord in heaven, I don’t think even the KIKES are capable of being this shameless. Such a low level of consciousness and morality. No wonder how the yids enslaved these inferior beings.
I doubt if you even knew which and which were the bandits, but one can be certain that they were ethnic Chinese and not nigger-kike-mutts, like a typical american hick.
We Euros sincerely thank you and your kike monkey president for severing the Jewnited snakes from the rest of the world.
You can keep your bad-haircut kike puppets (trump, milei, anglo boris johnson, usw.)
Soon there will be no more NATO.
Regardless of how you prefer to belittle China’s contributions, you can’t change the fact that printing, compass, and gunpowder were invented in China. And paper too, though Francis Bacon didn’t mention it in his 1620 book. China does not boast much; when the Chinese say that these were the Four Great Inventions that changed the world, they really mean it.
And without them European civilization could not have developed as it did — in spite of whatever it may have added. The West owes China much. I laugh at how desperately you Westerners try to weasel out of that debt.
In reference to Lijiang:
The fact is that you did not mention any other historically relevant Chinese city that you thought could compete with Córdoba and Split, which you chose. Ping Yao, one of the few cities in which the old town has UNESCO Heritage Site status, primarily because of its intact peripheral wall, is in a “state of disrepair“, as cited in Wikipedia, which can easily be verified by pictures. The cities with canals and bridges on the UNESCO list may not be as historically significant for other reasons.
This is what you are hoping for. Unless such places incur serious mass damage due to an earthquake or flooding, there is no incentive for a comprehensive government sponsored overhaul. Natural restoration is expensive and takes time. Yet you have failed to even mention any such city that would be deserving of a makeover for tourism, and for which specific reasons. However, it is known that in Guangdong Province they have actually built a replica of a picturesque Austrian lake town (Hallstatt) for tourists to admire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_(China)
“The construction of Hallstatt is part of a trend in China to mimic or rebuild other parts of the world. While this is one of only a few examples where a whole town layout has been partly replicated (the second being Venice), there are many similar places in China.”
This peculiar phenomenon sends the signal that Chinese towns themselves do not measure up to the standard that many tourists demand, so that the cultural heritage that they seek needs to be imported from Europe.
This is an odd question. Water that is suitable for drinking normally flows out from pipes. People who wish to refill their water bottle in a city are not going to submerge them into the canal.
In summary, as readers following this exchange will have already noticed by now, your responses merely seek to cover up the basic fact that you were unable to meet my challenge in comment #116, above. Indulging in such dissembling tactics, including attempts to ridicule me, just makes you look foolish and chauvinistic..
Are you a descendant of those hundreds of thousands of white women captured by the Japs in WWII, locked up in the animal farm-style concentration camps, and used as sex toys?
The topic of mass production printing and Gutenberg’s important contribution in the 15th century has already been addressed in detail within this thread, including links for further reading. As in other cases, Chinese initially made a discovery that must have seemed rather impractical and was eventually abandoned because the necessary engineering process to create a successful application was either lacking or not applied.
Your suggestion, through subtle insinuation, is almost that if these purported inventions had not occurred in China when the did, then they would not have happened at all, or at least much later, and consequently European civilization could not have developed. This kind of reasoning needs to be rejected because other cultures would have likely discovered or innovated these artifacts. The red herring you presented is nothing other than an attempt to minimize the remarkable unfolding and refinement of Western civilization, particularly after 1400, by declaring it to have been a derivative of earlier Chinese originality.
Dwelling upon the issue of societal development in this manner smells of a desire to suppress a latent inferiority complex while setting up a twisted moral excuse to justify the theft of more recent European and American technical inventions or designs. Since China was overtaken by Europe as the driver of intellectual progress more than 500 years ago, it would be instructive for those who lament that transformation to analyze the failings of the Ming dynasty, just as historians still contemplate the reasons for why the Roman Empire ultimately collapsed.
Has Been the race-hating Sinophobe, slithers in again. Building replica cities in China is a fad, like Las Vegas. How telling that a Ukronazi bum-boy like this is such a VICIOUS race-hater. Of course, arguing that a country, and a people, have no history or culture is pre-genocidal conditioning. What a pluperfect Western thug you are. PS The Chinese are tougher and much, much stronger than in 1839-peddle your dopium to your Banderite idols.
Fine. I see that what you wrote earlier
could be interpreted as you say now. You could have been MUCH clearer.
However, according to you, DeepSeek may have done its exfiltration from OpenAI “in late 2024”. R1 was released in January 2025. Are you saying that DeepSeek grew up in just a few months? I say: no way.
Your Techcrunch article claims that DeepSeek identifies itself as ChatGPT, but it does not. Just now I asked it directly, and its answer was “Hi! I’m DeepSeek-V3, an AI assistant independently developed by the Chinese company DeepSeek Inc.” (Emphasis mine.)
The power consumption issue is crucial. If DeepSeek was indeed trained by ChatGPT or similar US company, then that company would have experienced a vast drain on its power bills. I don’t see anyone complaining about losing literally millions of dollars of electricity.
Do you see the Uighur Army that spent the past decade fighting in Syria (hoping to get experience to make it back to China for another fight)? You had something like that in Italy? Delusions.
Ewww.
You take that back
What strange reasoning that is?
I clearly stated that it is a “little far flung” town.
Surely that meant that if a town so far away from the center of culture can be as developed and lovely as this, then of course in the center of culture there will be more examples?
This shows you understand nothing of China and how it is governed.
You assume that the Central Government is sitting in Beijing directing every restoration effort.
This is not how it works. Every city mayor wants to get promoted. In order to get promoted, he must prove that he can do good work, including improving the economy of his city, increase the happiness of the people etc…..a riot or civil disturbance would show up very badly on his record.
So if a city mayor is lucky enough to have potential tourist site within his jurisdiction, and it fits in his economic development strategy, he is keen to develop it. If an entrepreneur comes to him and says he wants to turn an old courtyard house into a fancy hotel, the mayor will facilitate it by clearing the way through the municipal system, granting him permits etc. They mayor may also give certain endorsements to the entrepreneur as he applies for loan at the bank etc etc.
5 years later the town has a small tourist industry and some social media influencers feature it on Redbook or Douyin or some other app, and it becomes viral. Now hoards of tourists come from all over China to see his little tourism project.
The mayor is pleased because his reputation has increased, and he has a high chance of being promoted to a district governor. If he keeps up his good work, he may eventually become governor of the province, or hell, he might even get into the Central Government in Beijing. If he is very very very very very good at his work, he might get a chance to be a Politburo Member
Am I your slave? Have you no initiative of your own? How disappointing.
I have already given you tantalising examples.
Instead of saying “oh yes, maybe there is more”
You cling to your “backward China” copium and assume that what I have given you is all there is.
As I said…there is PLENTY MORE.
All you have to do is go on youtube and search for “Visit China Ancient Town”.
Why don’t you watch a few of those videos then come back to me ok?
Here are some to get you started.
Can you imagine when China becomes more affluent? There will be 10X more of these.
Look at the tourists…..99% of them are Chinese internal tourists.
I have already explained to you that this is an utter lie.
I myself as a child played in my grand uncles printing shop where he printed with movable type with Chinese characters.
All you have to do is google for images of “Movable type Chinese printing 1950” and you will see plenty of examples that it existed well into the 20th century.
I don’t know why you continue to knowingly spew lies.
The perfidious in “Perfidious Albion” and its heirs is starting to show.
Ever hear of a “software patch”? because the Chink developers installed one over a week ago! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Incorrect. Japan lost most of it’s navy and lost millions of civilians fighting the US – but it actually lost most of it’s army fighting in China. Japan was cowardly not valiant. They waited until the 8 nation alliance had weakened China. That said Japan was stagnating in their push further and further into China and that’s why they “went for broke” and attacked Pearl Harbor. It was all or nothing. That said – Japan were no better conquerors than anyone else who invaded China throughout the centuries. The Mongols were better conquerors. To this day more Mongols live in China than their own country. Why? Well there was a Steven Spielberg movie that would explain it to you. I think it was called Shanghai Noon. I don’t even remember it much but there was one line that did some up the real situation and mindset. A westerner asked a Chinese business man basically why China wouldn’t surrender rather than lose so many people. Basically the westerners were fleeing. He told the westerner (paraphrase) “there are 500 million of us…. they can’t kill us all… we will outlast them”.
I don’t understand that…. Catholic nation fought Catholic nation in Europe. Protestant and Protestant. Catholics and Protestants fought very deadly wars. So what is this “unity”. The only “unity” was in trying to colonize the rest of the world. But even then that was competition. The Caribbean is a good example. Each European royal had ships robbing the pirates who worked for other European royals. The Pirates of the Caribbean was a real thing – in spite of Hollywood making caricatures out of it (well in fairness I never watched any of those movies). But what was “Christian” about any of that anyway?
You don’t make any profit investing in any stock anywhere…. You can only make capital gains. But the answer is – China doesn’t use all types of tricks to prop up and artificially inflate it’s stock market. So if you actually invest you can make gains (and no I’m not just talking). If you are just a speculative trader – then not really.
Actually Panama should still be part of Colombia if you hadn’t robbed it. But comparing Panama and Taiwan is utterly ridiculous. I sincerely hope it was a joke. As some pundits noted… Don’t be surprised if China doesn’t get behind that proposed canal through Nicaragua.
and back on topic on how Chinkland will beat the West … because this list of failed military orders … due to suck ass performance … indicates otherwise. LOL!!!!
A Chinese tank breaks down while at military games
yet another Chink tank breaks down
and another
and another
The pitfalls of using Chinesium when building them. Oh well! Them’s the breaks! LOL!!!!!!!!
On the economic front, the largest employment category for Chinese PhDs is now … “delivery driver”. LOL!!!!!
Columbus sailed directly into the Atlantic.
I read Red Star Over China and every other book Edgar Snow wrote. He was Mao’s publicity agent. He was a communist. He was extremely biased in favor of Mao and Mao’s conquest of China.
Hi can you be so gullible and naive as to believe Snow one of the most biased pro Mao writers about the communist conquest of China
A proposition.
If Unz comment functionality can include agree, disagree, thanks, LOL and troll buttons then given the current emerging climate of shills commenting should not a shill button be added in all fairness and to a lesser extent for convenience?
Show of hands?
Your usual response, characterized by mental shallowness, maliciousness, and obsessively compulsive behavior, trumpets your lack of a counter-argument to all readers. It reminds me of those primitive Haitian goons (Tonton Macoute) running around the city with machetes.
I responded to your childhood print shop memory of Korean printing technology in comment #375. In an earlier comment I clarified the notion of “movable“. You are just trying to be willfully ignorant.
Once again you are digressing from the issue, which you had raised, so the burden was on you to provide a specific Chinese example that is roughly equivalent to the historic importance of Córdoba and Split, and of course you failed. The Internet and glossy travel magazines are full of exotic and scenic villages or islands that would make ideal adventure getaways. We are not discussing picturesque rural villages, like Dubrovnik, Capri, Santorini, etc.
And immediately started enslaving and colonising the peoples of the new lands he came across.
I second that proposition.
You are a shill for the Exceptional Empire.
China has third world prices because it’s a third world country.
The Chinese GDP per capita is low by Western standards, and so is the average salary. Of course their prices are low.
Westerners who praise China as “decades ahead” because of its lower cost of living are idiots. It’s literally because they are decades behind, not decades ahead. In every poor country, prices are low.
Movable type is movable type. It doesn’t matter if the type is made of metal or wood or plastic or carbon fibre.
The metal type is simply an refinement/evolution of the same method.
In contrast, a change of from Movable Type to Lithography would qualify as “abandonment” of an old technology. But not progress of wood to metal for the material that they movable type is made of.
You are being downright disingenuous.
That is your imputation.
I have shown you plenty of lovely examples.
You are like a person who likes girls with blond hair and blues eyes and state that there are no beautiful Chinese girls.
I show you beautiful Chinese girls with black hair and black eyes, and you deny they are beautiful.
Again, you are either being down right obstinate, or disingenuous.
Cordoba and Split are not capitals. They are relatively modestly sized historic cities by European standards.
Cordoba has a population of 330,000…considered a mid size city in Europe
Split has a population of 160,000…considered a smallish mid size city in Europe
Lijiang has a population of 1,250,000…considered a Third Tier City in China
Hangzhou has a population of 12,000,000….considered a Second Tier City in China
The pictures I have already shown you are appropriate comparisons…mid size cities to mid size cities.
I have purposefully not shown the large 1st Tier cities because the whole of this discussion was predicated on your and other Occidental commenters Copium filled allegation that:
“Oh, China may have nice fancy big modern cities. This is all copied from the West. See, they have no nice old cities with high culture”.
I remind you that we are now comparing old cities because of your own complaint as shown in bold above.
If you want to compare new big giant cities of populations of 30 million, we can do so now.
Brian is correct and a great analyst. But that’s why China keeps building nuclear attack submarines. Most of it’s submarines are diesel for near shore defense. Then of course you have ballistic missile submarines which are the nuclear deterrent. But nuclear attack submarines can only serve the purpose of going to the open ocean to protect Chinese shipping (and attack US nuclear submarines as well). See an Asian (video – much more thorough) and American perspective below
But no doubt that’s the main reason Trump wants control of the Panama Canal. Everyone knows it’s a lie to say that because Chinese have ports there that they control the canal. China doesn’t. But the US wants to control the canal to do what Brian is saying.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2024/10/chinese-type-09iiib-nuclear-powered-submarine-surfaces-in-image/
True. Chinese income is about a half of the USA.
Let us look at the comparison in detail
…………………………..USA……….China
Average income………….$37,000……$18,000………50%
Average meal……………..$15………..$3……………20%
Average rent………………$5500…….$950…………..17% NYC vs Shanghai
Average med insurance……$8,900…….$370…………..4%
Average college tuition……$38,000…..$4000…………11%
So you can see that even though the income in China is lower, their costs are MUCH LOWER.
This is why average Chinese households are able to SAVE 44% OF THEIR INCOME.
One note about those old Tong networks and Chinese “gangsters” in the US. Those people were almost all from Hong Kong and Taiwan… You know – the ones the west so called “free” Chinese. Ironic – right? Now there are some from Fujian province in the US… But they simply piggy bank on their Taiwan relatives (they are next door).
It did matter because the difference between the materials was so significant that the wooden types were too impractical for mass production because they did not last long, so the process was abandoned. To get full credit for an invention one has to differentiate between demonstrating a basic prototype and producing a functional and useful model.
Though the Chinese prototype was an incremental improvement upon the Japanese carved woodblocks with raised characters in reverse, more than a couple of centuries earlier, it was the subsequent Korean development in the early 15th century, with bronze cast type, which was sufficiently durable, hence useful for repeated production, though there were limitations based on the nature of characters, whereas small movable letter types, based on an alphabet, made the essential difference toward the mass production of bound books, with pages printed on both sides.
The point is that you are and another commentator are now trying to make a big deal about a Chinese contribution toward an intermediate concept that was abandoned, between original Japanese woodblock printing and Korean implementation of durable metal types, even though none of these three phases of development made the necessary difference that resulted in the practical printing of books, as a an early form of mass communication of ideas and an inspiration for enhanced literacy rates. Later, during the industrial age, lithography using cylindrical plates constituted another large jump in technological progress, enabling mass circulation newspapers.
This important concept of spreading information also relates to the elements of architecture. With regard to the topic of interactive mass communications prior to later discoveries of electricity, radio broadcasting, microphones and sound amplification, you have played down the relevance of public squares in comments #340 and #350 above. Inns and courtyards are a poor substitute for large plazas or amphitheaters. The stifling of mass communications in China, compared to Europe, more than half a millennium ago, relates to what constrained the necessary prerequisites for making scientific progress, including the wider dissemination of ideas, and knowledge.
As I have pointed out already, timekeeping provided the important frame of reference for organized activities. Water fountains, which provide drinking water, the development of which you also played down, are an important improvement upon the arduous task of having to carry and store water in jugs taken from a central well. Therefore, old historic cities that reflect progress should have large public squares, amphitheaters, bell towers, and water fountains.
Yeah good point about Xi. It’s weird when I read western reports that he’s turning China back to Maoism and Leninism (never mind that groups actually agitating for a real return to Maoism have been shut down). While he is serious about socialism and ending corruption – he spends way more time talking about restoring Chinese culture and historical society than he does talking about Marxist types of thought. That’s why he emphasizes “Chinese characteristics”. He spends plenty of time quoting Chinese classic writings.
Your projections are getting very silly.
That is completely irrelevant. A thousand years ago Córdoba was the most populous city in Europe and one of the biggest in the world. Split was an important Roman city and later it was a key Venecian city that was one of the few in which the population repelled the Ottoman rule in that region of the Adriatic and elsewhere in eastern Europe. As I already mentioned, neighboring Salona, now in ruins, was a large Greek city during antiquity. Note that my comment #116 did not even mention capitals, which are often merely an administrative designation, as a center of power. Recall that I wrote explicitly about “evidence of past advanced living and economic productivity” as well as “prestige” in comparison to a few notable European cities, so the historical context has been the issue all along.
What triggered all this was the conspicuous omission by the interviewee of a substantially long period of at least five centuries implied by his quoted passage “…for thousands of years has been one of the most economically and technologically advanced parts of the world.” Therefore, it was fair to ask readers for the specific evidence in support of his pompous claim, yet you have yet to provide it, in case it even exists. Since nobody else has responded with an example, I suppose they have readily acknowledged that it does not exist, which would be a reasonable conclusion. Instead of realizing this yourself, you have kept on pretending and dissimulating while repeatedly exposing your presumptuous attitude and ethnic chauvinism.
wut? It was not prototype. They used wooden type for hundreds of years.
And it was never abandoned. The materials just changed.
It is like saying sewing thread was once animal sinews, and that sewing thread has been abandoned because we now use cotton fibres instead? Totally disingenuous.
Again, according to you.
The Chinese preferred more intimate settings. Not big rowdy public events.
All made possible by paper and movable type printing.
You love to glorify one, and forget the contributions of the other.
Not in every climate. Again you impose your culture on the Chinese.
The mediterranean is dry compared to China proper. In China wells provided easy access to water for ordinary households. They did not need to go to fountains and lug home buckets of water.
Yeah yeah, again you impose your European priorities on the Chinese.
The Aztecs will be say that your cities should Temples dedicated to Human Sacrifice.
The Egyptians will say that your cities should have pyramids.
The Thais will say that your cities should have golden buddhas.
Fucking liar!
GDP per person in the US is around $85,000 per person. The GDP is over $29 billion and the population is around 335 million.
In China per person GDP around $12,500 per person. The GDP is over $18 trillion and the population is around 1.4 billion.
You SIMPLY CAN’T have an average personal income HIGHER then GDP per person …. and that goes triple for Chinkland where the government’s share of GDP is around 65% … making the take home GDP per person of an average Chinklander around $4,500.
You are either a fucking liar, or an ignorant dufus, and when it comes to Chinks I always lean on the side of liar. LOL!!!!!!!!!!
To repeat what I have said many times earlier
600 million Chinks have an income below 1,000 yuan a month (around $140 US) and close to 1 billion have an income of below 2,000 yuan a month (around $280 US). Of course with the Chink economy crashing, and numerous example of people not getting paid, I can certainly entertain the thought that this number of Chinklanders living on under 2,000 yuan a month has now risen to over 1 billion.
https://www.newsweek.com/china-article-censorship-1-billion-people-monthly-income-2000-yuan-poverty-1856031
A hashtag on Weibo, China’s X-like microblogging app, pointed to the ongoing income inequality by stating that “964 million people” were surviving on monthly incomings of 2,000 Chinese yuan, or about $280.
With China backsliding toward Mao’s Great Famine era, it would not surprise me to find out that in a decade or so, China enforces a unachievable “shit quota” like North Korea currently does. How can a North Korean be expected to achieve a 500 kilo “shit quota” when he doesn’t even get to eat that much food??
What goes in … comes out!! and what doesn’t go in … doesn’t come out, making the quota unachievable. LOL!!!!!!!!!
However, the different material was the key issue. The wooden types were impractical. It may have still been used to a limited degree, but the public impact was likely negligible. There was a long time lag before the Korean version with metal types would have been adopted.
See my comment #339, in which I quoted from the online Britannica encyclopedia, which has a long entry on the topic of printing:
“Wang Chen’s innovation, like that of Pi Sheng, was not followed up in China.”
That brief comment was preceded in the introduction by the following explanation:
In this discussion you have kept on avoiding and denying the validity of the main points and instead digressed into trivia and superficial excuses.
Are you now claiming that over many centuries nearly every Chinese household had their own private well? Public water fountains that provide drinkibng water are not exclusively a feature in Mediterranean regions. As I mentioned before, fountains are common in Switzerland, which gets plenty of precipitation.
What was the purpose of showing an image of a bridge in Chengdu, built in 2003?
Huh? It was a comparison. It appears you are unable to understand in abstract terms, so I have to dumb it down to everyday terms for you.
You attached a picture of the Alcazar and gardens and try to portray it as “European”… That Alcazar was built on top of the Ummayad muslim Al-Kasar. The gardens that you wax lyrical about, were based on the Muslim predecessor.
Cordoba in 1000AD under the Ummayad muslims had 450,000 population.
Cordoba in 1328AD under Alphonso XI was about 30,000 people.
So which period of the Cordoba do you want me to compare it with? The glorious period under the Ummayads? Or the little town under the Castilians?
You are totally disingenuous and your statement reveal it so. You take one fact about the large population in Cordoba under the Ummayads, and try to conflate it with “European High Culture”.
I now say, you are worse than being disingenuous. You are a downright LIAR.
Last year, Xi mentioned “culture” more than 100 times during his domestic travels. Here’s how China is systematically protecting its “historical and cultural heritage” by developing the institutional mechanisms at all levels of government, in both urban and rural areas, nationwide:
China steps up efforts to safeguard historical, cultural heritage – CGTN https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-09-04/China-steps-up-efforts-to-safeguard-historical-cultural-heritage-13hEnCVIEpy/index.html
Xi is promoting the revival of China’s 5,000-year old Civilization. So, Xi’s directive becomes a State mandate to all levels of government to implement policies, programs and projects for the development and preservation of China’s “historical and cultural heritage”.
With this in mind, I expect a massive revival in the cultural industries of China in the coming decades. This is an exciting time to witness and experience China 2.0.
You people are stupid. China is not a western country and doesn’t want to be. China solves it’s terror problem by re-educating and re-training them to turn away from extremism. The west goes and bombs and invades Muslim countries. Spare us the garbage.
See the story below in the link from Chinese english state media. China is a society that does NOT like people who cause contention and they make no excuses for enforcing it. Look at what happened last week with the Taiwan singer (who was very popular in Mainland China) who got the flu and died in Japan. Many people were mocking the Japanese healthcare system and all other sorts of rumors. They were removed from the internet. Her ex husband was a rich businessman from Mainland China (because unlike the crap western media feeds you telling you Taiwan and Mainland people hate each other and Taiwan people are in constant fear). His mother and he both apparently made false statements about the dead Taiwan singer. Guess what? They got banned from their social media channels. it had NOTHING to do with the government or religion or anything else. But if you make false statements and create rumors you are disturbing the peace. China does not tolerate such. And guess what – China doesn’t care if you like and neither does China want you in the west to live in the same way. It is YOU in the west that tries to tell others how to live. Even Muslim countries don’t buy the garbage you all are selling about how Muslims are treated in China. The leader of Pakistan was just in Beijing asking Beijing for help in fighting it’s own terrorists on its own territory. Bunch of clowns. Go worry about your refugee problem you all created by destroying Libya and disrupting other countries.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202502/1328065.shtml?id=12
Correction. That should be 60,000 population in 1300AD
Down from 450,000 people in 1000AD
Can you cite a passage in Red Star Over China where Edgar Snow lied? You probably can’t. As a fully indoctrinated American, you are of course allergic to the truth. That is why the US will be banning Tik Tok in a few weeks: it was letting everyone in the world see the truth about the genocide in Gaza.
China has low prices and high technology. Feel free to denigrate it as a third world country with some of the best technology on Earth.
You have seriously earned a spot on my ignore list. I am responding because others have been quoting you.
The world’s first moveable type pieces, created in China, were made from porcelain, which is very hard (link).
This was centuries before Johannes Gutenberg was born. But the West continues to insist that Gutenberg invented the printing press. LOL. The West is doing worse than steal technology — it wants to steal the credit for the technology.
Obviously, all important historical cities in Europe were subjected to different regimes over a period of centuries. Your suggestion of needing to separately compare different periods of a city is completely contrived, even more so that you would then accuse me of being “disingenuous” for implying what ought to be obvious to anyone, namely that the cumulative history of any city should be considered and appreciated when visiting it as a tourist. What counts is what historical features are in evidence today, regardless from which period in its history they were adopted.
You have inflated the population of Córdoba around the year 1000 by a factor of four or five, then attempted to insinuate some kind of important repercussion by the fact that the population was smaller during a subsequent period. Exactly what you were hinting at is unclear. During a long historical period decreases in population were not unusual. An excellent example is Rome. The following video of the most populous European cities during history shows the population swings very clearly. Depending on external circumstances, some cities were thriving and subsequently fell into decline.
Once again you have distracted from the fact that you have failed to present a comparable Chinese city that meets the reasonable criteria I have presented. Though you complain that these are European standards, the fact that Chinese cities lack these features probably explain the reason that China fell into decline for so many decades, which the interviewee and you were attempting to deny or obfuscate. In that sense you have already proven my point.
Video:
Largest European Cities (agglomeration) in History 7500 BC – 2020.
Top 11 biggest cities in Europe
For most of civilized global history, China led in science and technology. Not exclusively, but by weight of achievement, surely. One need only consult Needham et al’s ‘Science and Civilization in China’ in its thirty something chapters and fourteen or fifteen volumes, SO FAR, to see that.
Since the Renaissance, the fifteen century one, and the Industrial Revolution, the West took the lead, relying, as in all ‘progress’, on earlier inventions, many not of the West. That era is over, China has regained dominance, and other centres of ‘progress’ are growing up, and don’t the race haters and Western supremacists like the Banderite fan-boy Has Been, HATE it.
There’s really nothing fouler that a Pommy racist Colonel Blimp, now is there. I am watching Perfidious Albion’s collapse with unseemly joy. Perhaps the drunken bums might finally have a revolution, but I imagine they’ll stick to tugging the forelock and groveling to their ‘betters’.
China does not countenance spreading hatred on its media. In the West, the system THRIVES on hatred and social division, and envy of rich parasites. It’s easy to work out which is the superior system for social peace and harmony, and individual welfare. And NUMEROUS Islamic delegations, from numerous countries, and journalists as well, and all reported that things were highly satisfactory. And millions of tourists visit and travel freely without reporting any repression.
Has Been is a fascist, English, racist, a fan of the Ukrainian Nazi regime, and, plainly, a pustule of race hatred for the Chinese. This type is scared shitless by China’s rise, it refuting their worldview of absolute Western racial and civilizational supremacy. Coming from a denizen of a collapsing sewer like the UK, it is hilariously funny. And it lies where it has not been actively brainwashed. No wonder the Europeans hate them so much.
Either way – Mao didn’t “force” anyone to starve. The US placed China under grain embargo as usual to try to cause suffering. Mao and his team made wrong decisions to try to become self sufficient. It caused agricultural and industrial failures along the way…. Completely unlike the western narrative that they forced people into starvation. No Chinese – Mao supporter or not – would ever claim mistakes weren’t made in that period. But the idea that he murdered millions of Chinese because he was a maniac is a complete and utter lie. A sick one at that.
I have provided a link for the source of my information, but apparently you have quickly jumped to unwarranted to conclusions. If one consults another source the issue can be resolved. Note that the article talks about a concept, and I have referred to it as a prototype.
It can be concluded that:
• Wooden type was not suitable and rejected by the inventor.
• Though wooden type produced uneven results and did not last as long, it was easy to carve the characters.
• While Porcelain was preferred (in theory) because of its desired hardness, it was associated with other drawbacks in its implementation.
• Ultimately far more documents were printed with the wooden types because porcelain type was even less practical.
• Only after type pieces were made with bronze did printing become more practical.
This information basically confirms the points I had made. The article does not mention that the bronze type was first developed in Korea in tghe early 15th century. According to Brittanica, the further development of printing in Korea overlapped with the beginning of Gutenberg’s involvement in 1440:
“Nine other fonts followed from then to 1516; two of them were made in 1420 and 1434, before Europe in its turn discovered typography.”
The slow development in Korea occurred over a period of many years. One can conclude that the last sentence in the article cited above implies that successful printing in China with the bronze type that had developed in Korea was during the same period of time that the more advanced printing methodology developed by Gutenberg was used in Germany and then elsewhere in Europe.
Once again you are hallucinating wildly. Name-calling and concocting false allegations because you cannot contradict the facts, nor the arguments. Your transparent drama-queen response is like the proverbial cop saying to onlookers at an incident: Nothing to see here, move right along. It will just make the reader curious to see what I actually wrote, which you were unable to refute.
Indeed it will be interesting. I think that might be part of the reason the DPP is trying to de-content anything China from the society. The KMT used to claim to be “the real China”.. Their foreign handlers probably told the DPP that won’t work anymore.
Your weaseling does not change the fact that Bi Sheng invented moveable type printing in 1040 AD, long before Gutenberg was born. And this technology continued through the centuries, as the section on moveable type in Wang Zhen’s Book of Agriculture (1313) shows.
Your energetic effort to deny China credit for inventing moveable type proves how desperately you want to steal the credit for probably the greatest invention of all time.
I have better things to do than to interact with LIARS
Agreed, he is all that. His worst trait is that he is intentionally lying.
Delusions, ignorance, biases etc, as bad as they are, have a slim possibility of being overcome. If a person fails morally, there is really no hope for him.
I hope he remembers this moment, and is able to relate it to the state his country will be in, in a decade.
The more I interact with the likes of him, the more I appreciate Confucius. The strength of a country depends on the mettle of its citizens.
His ilk have lost their ability to self-reflect, and live in a state of self-denial.
As the ancient romans have said, the people deserve the leaders they get.
The DPP is like the Taiwanese version of the US Democratic Party. Both try to be as “Woke” as possible but they end up making a fool of themselves.
Let us celebrate the BBQ death of Mao’s son in the traditional Chinese manner.
By trading fried rice recipes!
Here’s one for shrimp fried rice from the South China Morning Post.
https://www.scmp.com/cooking/recipe/perfect-egg-fried-rice/article/3215340?module=around_scmp&pgtype=homepage
This assertion is funny! Only a few minutes upon having posted your image of the ancient sector of Xi’an that accompanied that quote, you then interacted with one of the most vile and notorious liars who comment at this site, credited with more than twenty thousand brain farts since 2015. The last two sentences in my comment #452 applies to your dissembling too. Instead of acknowledging that you lost the argument you resorted to unfounded name-calling as a last resort, which proves you are just a sore loser.
Note that in my comment #116 I had basically already acknowledged that Xi’an and Beijing were excluded from my challenge, so it was gratuitous of you post that image and thereby try to fool the readers because you failed to identify the location:
“Other than perhaps Xi’an and the Forbidden City in Beijing, where are the the Chinese locations that might be comparable in prestige to some of the European cities mentioned above?”
Also, regarding the population of Córdoba in 1000, it needs to be understood that estimates vary significantly, so that most of them are likely strongly exaggerated, nor are the population data highlighted in the video I linked to in comment #446 necessarily reliable; yet the strong fluctuations over time, including downward, highlight the point I made. Wikipedia explains in its entry for Córdoba that the range of population estimates varies by a factor of ten between minimum and maximum [footnotes deleted]:
“The economic historian J. Bradford DeLong estimates the city’s population at 400,000 around 1000 AD, while estimates from other historians range from 100,000 to 1,000,000 during the same era. Whatever Córdoba’s population was, the city’s apogee came to an abrupt halt after the 1009 crisis.”
It’s projection. No-one, ever, has murdered others more than Westerners, from the Thirty Years War to Iraq.
It was the liberation of China you racist, fascist, insect. Red Star Over China is full of characters from He Long to Zhou En-lai, who recognised Mao as primus inter pares, and the greatest geo-political figure of the last couple of centuries.
Deutsche Bank Decide to Go Long on China
This is China’s, not AI’s, “Sputnik moment”
We believe that 2025 is the year when the investment community realizes that China is surpassing the rest of the world.
It is increasingly difficult to ignore the fact that Chinese companies are offering better value for money and often better quality in many manufacturing sectors and, increasingly, even in services.
Investors pay for dominance, and we expect the “China discount” to disappear.
Moreover, with policies favoring consumption over production and likely due to financial liberalization, we believe profitability is expected to exceed expectations through the cycle. We believe the bull run in Hong Kong/China equities began in 2024 and will exceed previous highs in the medium term.
China first emerged as a dominant player in global apparel, textiles, and toys. It then dominated in basic electronics, steel, shipbuilding, and more recently in white goods, solar, and other less visible sectors.
China has also, without warning, dominated in industries such as complex telecommunications equipment, nuclear power, defense, and high-speed rail. These technological achievements were previously unappreciated by investors.
But by late 2024, China is in the spotlight for its rapid rise as the world’s leading auto exporter, flooding the global market with electric vehicles that are advanced, attractive, and cheaper than existing models.
In 2025, China launches the world’s first sixth-generation fighter jet and a low-cost artificial intelligence system, DeepSeek, in a week.
Marc Andreessens calls the launch of DeepSeek a “Sputnik moment” for AI, but it’s more like China’s “Sputnik moment,” marking the recognition of Chinese intellectual property. China’s areas of excellence in high value-added sectors and dominating supply chains are expanding at an unprecedented pace.
We believe that global investors tend to significantly underweight Chinese assets, just as they avoided fossil fuels a few years ago, until the market punishes investors for making non-market-oriented decisions. We see minimal exposure to China today.
Investors who like leading companies with moats cannot ignore this: it is Chinese companies, not the Western companies they see as economically superior, that have the widest and deepest moats today.
China’s manufacturing prowess is clear, with twice as many goods exports as the United States.
China contributes 30% of global manufacturing value added, and its share of services is rising rapidly. China has been shunned as an investment destination due to concerns about its economic weakness, but despite a cyclical slowdown, it is still growing more than twice as fast as most developed markets.
With companies that lead in nearly every industry, it is unlikely that China’s share of global market capitalization will remain in the single digits for long.
We believe there is a growing recognition that China today is where Japan was in the early 1980s, when Japanese companies were climbing the value chain, producing higher quality products and emerging with innovation.
Many Western companies and industries may face a potential existential crisis and therefore need to recalibrate their portfolios to reflect this…
https://thechinaacademy.org/deutsche-bank-decide-to-go-long-on-china/
Interview with Deepseek Founder: We’re Done Following
DeepSeek-R1 is shaking Silicon Valley. Founder Liang Wenfeng: “We’re done following. It’s time to lead.” …
https://thechinaacademy.org/interview-with-deepseek-founder-were-done-following-its-time-to-lead/
Who said anything about the US? I live in EUROPE.
WHAT? The Chinese PAY for college? Thousands of dollars?
Are you telling me that college in China is not free, as it is in many European countries?
You need “medical insurance” in China? You are not already covered by the government?
And here I thought China was communist!
LMAAAAO
China needs European socialism!
(As does the US).
Average Chinese income $18,000? Where did you get that? That’s ludicrous. I don’t know where you got that absurd number.
The statistic you need is disposable income per capita.
https://www.stats.gov.cn/english/PressRelease/202402/t20240201_1947120.html
According to National Bureau of Statistics of China, the nationwide per capita disposable income is 39,218 yuan, or 5.367 dollars.
But I would like to use a single source for both China and the US, which guarantees that they are calculated using the same method.
https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/ieo/data/pdf/A_A18_r_230822.081459.pdf
That will do. It’s already PPP adjusted, so it already says that Americans can buy 4 times as much stuff as the Chinese. Alternatively, we can undo the PPP adjustment and then compare the result with rent and food prices. The Chinese PPP adjusted GDP is twice its non-adjusted GDP, therefore, to undo the PPP adjustment here, we must halve the Chinese number. Therefore, Americans make 8 times as much money as the Chinese.
That aligns with information we can find elsewhere online. For example:
https://www.chinalegalexperts.com/news/what-is-the-average-salary-in-china#:~:text=The%20average%20salary%20in%20China%20varies%20depending%20on%20the%20city,per%20month%20in%20Q2%202023
The following links shows that the salaries for the same jobs are 8-10 times higher than that in the US:
https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries
https://www.indeed.com/career/factory-worker/salaries
When I look stuff up online, it turns out that, while food and rent are cheaper in China than in the US, they’re not cheap enough to compensate for 8 times lower salaries. They’re not 8 times cheaper. Sometiems they’re about the same, or even worse (milk, an American staple, is much cheaper in the US than in China), sometimes they’re 2 times or 3 times or at most 5 times cheaper in China, but never 8 times cheaper. Some links:
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=26
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=11
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=China&displayCurrency=USD
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=United+States
The only important one that approaches 8 times is the cost of an “inexpensive restaurant meal”, where the figure given for the US is 20$ (7 and a half times higher than in China), but this is contradicted by the fact that the price given for a MacDonalds meal in the US is 11$, therefore it is not true that an inexpensive meal costs 20$. Clearly that website is comparing apple and oranges when it comes to restaurants.
My conclusion is that the average Chinese can afford less stuff than the average American.
That appears to be the GROSS savings rate. Gross savings is different from personal savings. For example, the gross savings rate in Ireland is 61%, but the personal savings rate is much lower.
But I can believe that the Chinese save a lot of their income.
You can easily save most of your income in the West. The reason we do not is cultural.
There is one blogger, Money Moustache, who for years has preached that it’s easy to save the majority of your income if you live in the rich West.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-zero-to-hero-in-one-blog-post/
But for most of us it’s culturally difficult to accept that lifestyle. The average middle class Westerner is addicted to consumerism and extravagant spending, and doesn’t know it.
So, we’ve confirmed that China is poor. It must be because it’s an oppressive dictatorship, since the democracies in the region, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, are much richer than China, have higher life expectancy, lower crime, and much more freedom. Japan, Taiwan, South Korea are the true Far Eastern paradises.
Your false accusations in the quote above can easily be refuted as such. I have neither denied credit nor can one conclude that I am “desperately” trying to steal credit. On the contrary, you obviously have a reading comprehension problem and are attributing far more credit to Bi Sheng for allegedly inventing movable type printing, as this process is broadly understood today, than would be warranted by the actual facts.
Let’s go back and review exactly what I wrote in my initial comment #225, that prompted this dispute. I distinctly referred to the year 1440, which was the actual issue.
“This year coincides with one of the most significant technical inventions of the information age, the movable type printing press by Johannes Gutenberg.”
This statement clearly refers only to the particular printing process invented by Gutenberg. Since it does not claim that Gutenberg was the first person to have introduced the concept of movable type printing, there should not have ever been any controversy. Moreover, I even quoted a specific claim made by Gutenberg, as presented in Wikipedia:
“It was in Strasbourg in 1440 that he is said to have perfected and unveiled the secret of printing….”
The word perfected clearly implies that the printing process itself had already been developed earlier but lacked crucial refinements.
In a response, presented in comment #229, a person from Singapore lamented in bold faced letters that “China doesn’t get its due credit“, as if though he thought that I had necessarily been obliged to mention prior Chinese contributions, which would have been out of context, given that the focus was on the year 1440.
I then responded in comment #237 with a link to information at Reddit, in which these Chinese contributions to printing were highlighted, so I thereby most definitely provided even more credit than he had likely expected. Additionally, I pointed out that Gutenberg made significant improvements to corroborate the impact his contributions had.
Nonetheless, in comment #313 the following accusation was unfairly made against me, presumably referencing comment #225:
“…you did not allude to the Chinese invention date, but perpetuated the misunderstanding that Gutenberg invented the movable type press.”
Since printing, loosely defined, has been an elaborate developmental process, at least since the time of hieroglyphics many thousands of years ago, there can really not be just one definite Chinese invention date. Furthermore, as can be deduced from my comments and my link to Reddit, I did not induce nor perpetuate any misunderstanding whatsoever. This individual, whose comments often reek of obsessive Chinese chauvinism, then presented another presumptuous statement:
“No doubt you did not know about the Chinese antecedent until I highlighted it to you.”
Responding to him in comment #339, I pointed out that I had already been aware of the history of printing technology before the the Internet became popular. I explained to him what the source of any misunderstanding could be, based on the difference between a conceptual invention that is impractical and a useful and successful mass implementation. I quoted at length from a long article in the Britannica encyclopedia. Yet this chauvinist carried on with the annoying mannerism of a bitchy drama queen. As should be apparent by now, there was no need for him to have escalated the issue in the first place, but this is a character who likes to double down with more nonsense upon having veered off-track.
With regard to your own comments and accusations, I have openly demonstrated that I do not have any reservation about giving credit to Chinese inventors for having introduced the concept of moving type used in relatively crude carved wooden blocks, with limited utilization, which can be fairly characterized as early prototypes. However, it must be understood that these developments were insufficient to produce a “workable system” (see quote below), which is what the envisioned printing process is all about. Therefore, contrary to your insinuation, evident from your accusatory term “steal the credit“, the early Chinese contributions should not eclipse the value of subsequent improvements in Korea and Germany, where the required metal types were deployed and wide adoption was consequently achieved. You unjustifiably wish to also attribute those more significant later improvements to the early Chinese experimentations.
The following quote from a short article about typography summarizes the situation that you ought to concede, especially concerning the demand for high technical standards, rather than throwing out ridiculous accusations of denialism and theft against me, no doubt motivated by your compulsive chauvinism.
As I said. Interacting with LIARS is a waste of time.
Before dreaming about vanquishing the West and conquering the Universe, China should concentrate on defeating one of their neighbors first. For example, mighty Vietnam:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War
China’s economy will accelerate in the next few years after a five year period of slow growth due to the following factors:
1. China’s services industries have made a strong comeback after the Covid-19 pandemic while increasing the market dominance of internet, e-commerce and social media platforms such as Tencent, Pinduoduo and Bytedance, respectively;
2. China’s green-energy transportation industries such as HSR, LRT, MRT and EVs have surpassed GVs in the domestic market and while rapidly expanding in overseas markets;
3. China’s consumption and importation of Arab oil will start declining this year and reach ZERO by 2030 due to factor #2;
4. China’s housing market has become a buyer’s market after the property bubble burst a few years ago which has lowered housing prices by 25-50% in 2nd-tier and 3rd-tier cities, making them affordable to first-time home buyers;
5. China’s technology industries continue to outpace the rest of the world with rapid adoption of 5G/6G, Robotics, AI, Drone, 3rd and 4th Generation Nuclear Energy, Solar/Wind Power, Ultra-Super-Critical Coal-fired Power Plants, 5G/6G Fighter Jets, Maglev, etc.;
6. China’s manufacturing industries have now reached a level of automation behind only Singapore and South Korea in robot density, having surpassed Japan and Germany;
7. China’s BRI has now reached the vast majority of the Global South, thereby diversifying its export markets away from developed countries as part of its “Dual-Circulation Strategy”;
8. China’s shift away from the USD in its foreign trade and investment has allowed it to insulate itself from currency fluctuations and financial sanctions;
9. China’s increasing focus on its domestic markets has allowed local manufacturers to concentrate on design, branding, marketing and support which has increased the value-added and market share of their products;
10. China’s “Dual-Circulation Strategy” allows both factor #9 and factor #2 to complement each other, thereby expanding its GNP overseas while increasing its GDP at home without the financial risks of currency fluctuations and political risks of volatile markets.
Great article blowing away the propaganda/fantasy and lies of the mainstream Western media.
China’s postal system delivered 150 billion parcels last year. That was in November before 2024 ended. Exports to 160 nations rose 7.6%. Clearly their economy is moving along just fine despite all the Western media’s denigrations and all the US and EU’s sanctions and disruptions.
I’d like to point out something most people don’t realize. Filial piety in Confucianism is fulfilling the fifth commandment.
Honor your father and your mother,
that your days may be long in the
land which the LORD your God gives you.
(Exodus 20:12; RSV)
As the Apostle Paul points out in Ephesians 6:2, this is the first command with a promise. Deuteronomy 5:16 explains it a little further.
Honor your father and your mother, as
the LORD your God commanded you; that
your days may be prolonged, and that
it may go well with you, in the land
which the LORD your God gives you.
(Deuteronomy 5:16)
In general and as a whole, China is the world’s oldest continuing civilization. Their days on the land have definitely been prolonged. “-that it may go well with you” is the second consequence.
Others might think of the government’s promotion of Confucianism as another method for controlling the population, but it still is a return to filial piety. A Christian would see it occurring with an unintended consequence of doing well.
There is a religious aspect to Confucianism. The emperors carried out sacrifices to 上帝 (ShangTi; the highest sovereign; God) on behalf of the nation. These sacrifices were a sign of the “mandate of heaven”, a sign of legitimacy for the rulers. Filial piety and the ancestral sacrifices performed by everyone else in the nation were based on this function.
By the ceremonies of the sacrifices to Heaven and Earth they served God,
and by the ceremonies of the ancestral temple they sacrificed to their
ancestors. He who understands the ceremonies of the sacrifices to Heaven
and Earth, and the meaning of the several sacrifices to ancestors, would
find the government of a kingdom as easy as to look into his palm!
(Doctrine of the Mean, section 19; translation by James Legge. See also: Notions Of The Chinese Concerning God And Spirits, by James Legge, page 47.)
The Chinese have no name for God, only the title 上帝. There are no idols or images. This is very similar to ancient Israel. For the Hebrews, there were no images of God (Exodus 20:4), and there was no name for God until Moses asked for one. (Exodus 3:13 and 6:3.)
If one believes the Bible, or that the God of the Bible exists, then China’s return to prosperity is easily explained. If one calls this coincidence, one has to accept almost 4000 years of history of doing well as coincidence. That’s a very long period of coincidence(s).
If one accepts the Bible, no weapon (biological, chemical, economic, nuclear, etc) will succeed against China so long as she holds to filial piety. The Western nations are doomed to fail.
Which is a vassal state of the USA.
The minds of Europeans have been thoroughly colonised by the Yanks propaganda.
Huh? 8 times????
I don’t know how you manage to get those figures from your Indeed website. They do not allow to pick locations from outside the USA.
I suggest you do better research before you form an opinion about China.
You can start by actually visiting the place and see it with your own eyes.
You forgot about Singapore. It is an authoritarian oppressive one party state. But has a per capita GDP higher than USA. How is that possible?
A hyena assumes that every other creature likes to predate on other animals.
A hyena cannot conceive that an elephant has no interest in gobbling up other states.
No wonder the Greeks and Romans referred to the likes of you as Barbarians.
Since you could not prove that I lied and have interacted with me once again, you are acknowledging that I am not a liar.
Yes, Yulong Snow Mountain (5596 m elevation) near Burma is higher than Mt. Blanc in Europe but not as high as Mount McKinley. Those mountains were all there before Chinese civilization began.
One can find pretty Japanese or Chinese gardens and corresponding architecture in places outside Asia too. For instance, there is a Chinese Garden in the city of Zurich, adjacent to the lake:
Munich has a Chinese Tower, around which there is a beer garden serving Hofbräu during the summer:
Of course this is no longer related to ancient cities, a topic which we have exhausted.
So this god demands blood?
And then this god rewards those who kill for him (animal and/or human) with earthy success as long as they respect their mother and father?
If that is your assertion, then this god is surely a demon.
So you went to war against Vietnam…to do what?
Did big mr elephant feel threatened by this mighty country?
I can’t believe the Whites downgrade themselves to the level of Indians. The Whites are making feces their national news headlines, and weaponizing it as national WMD.
It seems EuroIndo culture is not hearsay; the Whties and Indians are indeed next to kin.
True warriors expect to die in ways however horrible. Mao accepted his son’s death as unavoidable consequence for stopping an enemy rushing at China’s gates.
The Amelikunts, however, see it differently– they earn their heroism by making civilians die terrible deaths:
https://www.gettyimages.hk/search/2/image?phrase=agent+orange+victims+family
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/19/us/politics/afghanistan-drone-strike-video.html
LIARS also seem to crave attention
Anti China people are weird. So please explain why Chinese citizens have among the highest savings rates in the world. China has a household savings rate of 44% according to the World Bank. The EU average is 26%. So let’s see you try to get around this one…. That’s why the 4 biggest banks in the globe by assets are in China. Not just the top 1 but the top 4. Let’s see your verbal gymnastics . Oh and Taiwan is not a country. It’s a province of China. And when you compare it to the coastal provinces of the Mainland you get a different comparison than the one you listed. Democracy? Of please with that garbage. South Korea? Japan? Dysfunction and more dysfunction. Taiwan? What a joke. But as this Taiwanese down below notes – you westerners get lied to by your media and aren’t told the truth of what goes on in Taiwan.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDS.TOTL.ZS?most_recent_value_desc=false&year_high_desc=true
https://www.spglobal.com/market-intelligence/en/news-insights/research/the-worlds-largest-banks-by-assets-2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU0LSsWBtx8&pp=ygUIQ2FybCB6aGE%3D
You obviously like to talk from a position of ignorance.
To try to stop the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia in 1978.
And it was the Chinese, not me.
This “mighty country” invaded and swallowed up the Kingdom of Champa in the 1400s,
Gobbled up parts of other parts of Cambodia in 1800s.
Grabbed 70% of the islands in the South China Sea in 1970s
Better to deal with virtual shit … then the real thing! LOL!!!!!
How many years has it been since you Chinks wore those split ass pants so you can “go” anywhere and anytime? Now you have to pull them down first! LOL!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/40A7P6HpN2k
And somehow China failed to achieve this:
Vietnam continued to occupy Cambodia until 1989
But more importantly, why is this the concern of the big elephant who fears no one?
I see, China is obviously no match for them.
You have attempted to minimize China’s contribution to printing, especially moveable type printing, and to maximize Gutenberg’s contribution. This is essentially an attempt to steal the credit for the invention, and demonstrates how desperate you are. You even have the gall to deny that you are doing it.
People can see why you have earned a spot on my ignore list: you are habitually dishonest.
That much is true.
So why are you changing the subject? The elephant didn’t try to gobble up the hyena. It was only trying to stop the hyena from gobbling up the mouse.
Maybe so.
The Vietnamese are stubborn fighters. Many have found that out.
China did not fail to stop Vietnam’s imperialism. Notice that the Vietnamese army did not continue into Thailand, as it could have if it hadn’t been spanked by China.
And yes, in 1979 China was punishing Vietnam, not attempting to conquer it. This is obvious as China withdrew after just a few weeks. Vietnam celebrated “victory”, but China was clearly not attempting conquest. China’s army was relatively small: China claims it sent 200,000 soldiers; Vietnam claims 600,000 Chinese soldiers were involved (link). Even if we believed Vietnam’s claim about the size of China’s army (probably a greatly exaggerated number) that would not have been large enough to conquer: the Americans failed with more soldiers than that, and China was watching. Why didn’t the Middle Kingdom send in millions of soldiers, as it could have done quite easily? The answer is obvious: China had no intention of conquering Vietnam.
A great essay, by all means a convincing analysis that I have held to for many years. This is partly why I read Unz, to come to know the world, and to see what other free-thinkers know.
Although I am not so sure that DeepSeek R1 was trained on third rate hardware and is not a propaganda coup aimed against the west (China is commonly expected to have gone around the first round of sanctions on advanced Nvidia machine learning accelerators and probably was able to get their hands on about 250k of the most advanced Nvidia accelerators, a substantial amount).
This is because if one has a deeper understanding of military technology than your main source, one can more easily see how truly far ahead the Chinese are pulling in military technology. They are ahead in almost all categories in practice, owing to skipping over older design generations.
The US is in effect the near peer in terms of quality in all areas except nuclear attack submarines (SSNs), but they were going to build a lot of boats at least equal to the oldest US SSNs in service / Improved Los Angelies Class and after that class quieting gives diminsihin returns as they are often as quite as the background noise of the sea, although more powerful computer hardware and modern ML-based algorithms are advancing too. A quite unexpected delay in mass production is probably due to Russian technology transfer and with Russian help they could build boats as good as 10 year US boats.
Add that China will eventually have an overall quantitative advantage, it already has out to the first Island Chain, ie in the South China Sea, in 7-10 years out to the 2nd Island Chain and the Malacca strait, and in 10-15 years out to Australia and Hawaii.
And quantity definitely has a quality on it’s own, which China will enjoy in all but numbers of supercarriers and for around 10 years SSNs.
But the US Navy is overstrecthed, under-maintained because of too long deployments and many ships are old and the same goes for the US Airforce, in part because of insane contracts stipulating US Military personnel cannot perform certain maintenance on the systems they have bought and it must instead be done by the selling companies themselves. But Capitalism!
The USN commander in the pacific inexplicitly for some reason considers a Chinese Type 052D or DL destroyer, the most numerous and newest Chinese Navy destroyer, equivalent to 0.6 of a USN Arleigh Burke (DDG-51) destroyer.
This is probably due to the number of missile cells, of which the DDG-51 has 96 and the type 052D has 64, but it is stupid.
This does not account for the fact that the Chinese ships has a radar at least 1 full generation ahead, of Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) type, with much bettter resistance to jamming, faster scan rates, longer range in equally fast search and that is much harder to detect.
Further by now all Chinese anti-air missiles use active radar, probably most of them with AESA radars, and some of the ones with AESA radars being 2nd generation AESA radars using Gallium Nitride elements instead of Gallium Arsenide, with higher power output and better range at equal antenna size.
Also, all destroyers have a better second radar for anti-ship missile search than the equivalent US destroyers, with newest destroyers using GaN AESA radars while newest US destroyers use PESA designs.
Most importanly each US missile cell has a size of 650×650 mm while the Chinese missile cells on destroyers are 850×850 mm, about 1,75 times the area. For instance, while the US design can carry four 60km max range SAMs “quadpacked”, it is probable the Chinese can carry four 100+km max range SAMs “quadpacked” (There is no evidence for this, but if there is one thing there would not be possible to find open evidence of it is this)
Max kill probability is normally achieved out to 50-67% percent of maximum range depending on target, meaning the US design doesn’t reach the ships radar horizon with max kill probability while attacking advanced supersonic maneuvering missiles.
The Chinese quadpacked missile design would do so and also have a larger diameter allowing for a larger radar that can better detect stealth targets, such as newest US missile designs.|
On Chinese cruisers (By US convention) these large cells can carry an anti-ship ballistic missile with a probable max range of 1000-1500 km, a truly formidable weapons for sinking ships (We don’t know if Chinese destroyers can do so). The Chinese ships also carries better anti-ship missiles and a CIWS that may actually be useful against the expected US threat, subsonic anti-ship missiles.
The only real advantage US destroyers has is probably more long range missiles and not counting the first 15 or so of 70 DDG-51s (That have no hangars) two helicopters instead of one for submarine hunting.
The above are the delusions of the military leaders, at admiral level, always primarily chosen for political reasons (It’s well known one cannot be promoted above colonel or captain without the right politics) of a declining empire.
The reason Deepseek *which is not really open source by standard defintions) it may be a psychological operations.
AGI, Artifical Generalized Intelligence, and then quickly advancing to Artifical SuperIntelligence, is basically what the judeo-west (the part of the world that is whatever that is left of western civilization after being taken over by a parasite) is aiming for to contain a rising China.
It is the single chance, the only remotely possibly realistic way, at this late time of parasitic-caused decline, that the Jewish-dominated west can contain an obvious rising Middle Kingdom.
As the essay shows, and as most people w some non-western mainstream media derived knowledge of Chinese society and technological sucesses since circa 2000 and capable of doing rational non-biased independent analysis of reality already knows, China is certainly pulling ahead of the liberal west – greatly weakened by abovementioned forces – in practically all measures (excluding the freedom to be a mindless hedonist free from all non-chosen bonds – ie the perfect compliant atomized consumer under a hostile elite).
The Chinese will almost certainly, in common parlance, come to rule the world, in the same way the Germanic anti-liberal northern Europe once was close to doing, also in an historical instant by applying practically oriented politics derived from a deep understanding of reality (an understanding of reality the chief ideologue of the CPC, Wang Huning, also shares – read his book America Against America – Notes From a Stay In The US, available on the internet in an amateur translation that is good enough, it is excellent as cultural analysis).
That is if the parasite in xcontrol of the West does not destroy all civilization in a nuclear war first.
As soon as the Third Reich had been defeated by what was essentially a Jewish League and later the Russians foolishly ended the cold war on what the naive Gorbachev thought was amicable terms and Jewish parasitic liberalism was to overtake the west, this fate was sealed.
But the Russians did this only after they had given the Chinese the nuclear bomb and ballistic missile technology – the only true guarantor of sovereignity (Of course political will is required too, as North Korea, though ruled by a criminal and cruel, but determined dynasty, has shown).
A larger Germanic anti-liberal Northern Europe having it’s sovereignity assured by access to the bomb and with advanced rocket technology, of course never giving away the secrets of the agricultural revolution from the West to the world, would probably also have come to rule the world in a near thousand year “reich”, just as the Chinese will do.
The Chinese are very lucky that the Russians practically gave them the nuclear bomb and the means of delivery and that the majority of Jews – especially the numerous Ashkenazi – look nothing like them so that the strategy of Jewish crypsis was not available for Jewish infiltration.
Incidentally, the strategy of crypsis is primarily what the relatively humanitarian pre-war National socialists tried to stop Jews from using with the famed Yellow stars – with Hitler in the end failing where Mao by sheer luck succeded despite both of them, in their last and latter years respectively, having become pure madmen.
The only possible occurences that might possibly stop this is
A. Chinese demographic decline.
But as Unz’s (former?) acquaintance Tsu has said, the situation is not immediately dangerous and China has about a 20 year window to fix this, and the very capable state apparatus of China has managed greater projects successfully, and is already showing signs in it’s internal messaging of for instance expressing the necessity of Chinese women being mothers first.
Besides, advanced automation combined with machine learning (One main focus of Chinese AI efforts) and eventually AGI (not necessarily conscious in anyway, being capable of acting as an agent is enough), might anyway make demographics within a homogenous nation state, a moot point.
B. The judeo-west rushing ahead to Artificial Generalized Intelligence and then Superintelligence and this emerging victorious in the race for what may be the only possible better guarantor of sovereignty, expecially in a by computers connected world, than the nuclear bomb.
As for the question of the current Chinese order being national socialist, the answer is yes, although in a form more attuned to the racial charactericstics fo the Chinese.
As a Scandinavian racialist I don’t feel any particularly close spiritual kinship to the Chinese people on a personal level, but reality being what it is, this article is a great representation of the facts as they stand.
I am by noi means a national socialist but I can admire some of it’s positive qualities which was most apparent in the (Anti-bolshevik and anti-liberal, in the earlier stages a reasonable Schmittian understanding of politics, ethnocentric, meritocratic but egalitarian in a positive sense. And at least in it’s earlier stages, it expressed an older traditional understanding of Aryan individualism).
Although I am by no means a social democrat, I can admire some of it’s positive qualities. It was in essence in the 1920s to 1940s a very moderate form of national socialism, but being quite unsophisticated and lacking the deeper understanding of reality that German national socialism had.
But it was intensively anti-bolshevik and anti-liberal, for the advancement of it’s people, ethnocentric, pro-mixed economy with heavy competition, and very anti-corruption, and anti-central banking.
Social Democracy as a positive force was finished soon after it came under the influence of the judeo-liberal US post-war and what was traditionally thought of as true right wing politics – which is not rule by the merchant class, anti-ethnocentrism and politics dominated by femininity – was placed on the unthinkable part of the Overton Window and later in effect outlawed, to some surprisingly in what was the western part of the emerging bipolar world order, were Jewish influence was the greatest after circa 1950.
It’s not hard to see why for instance, during WWII, the Swedish early Social democratic society – not under occupation – and Danish Social democratic society – under occupation – and both ruled by broad emergency governments including all major non-bolshevik parties – got along well with the Third Reich (until war-strained Germany forced harsher measures on the Danish while the Swedish primarily wanted to end up in the winner’s good graces).
Although today considered opposites, those ideologies were not in the 1930s so different.
Early nordic social democrats did not seek an ideal society very different from what pre-war German national socialists did and to the extent the former disliked the latter it was mainly, but certainly not only, as political competitors. Likewise many national socialists did start out as socialists, although the most left-wing of them was killed off in the Night of the Long Knives.
Both were in essence the same ideologies, expressing the racial characteristics of their peoples, shaped by their respective local conditions. One ideology came out of homogenous countries containing the whole of the people who’s will it was expressing, and one was trying to achieve that while also dealing with a parasitical people inside it’s borders. Neither wanted war with the west but Hitler, the main fault with German national socialism, cerainly ascribed to the older German lebensraum idea, and saw slavs as orthodox see all oterhs as gioyin to be exploited.
If a synthesis of pre-war national socialism of Germany had been combined with the moderating but very results-oriented tendencies of the early Social democrats it is my contention that what would have become of that is very close to what Chinese society is today, although expressing the racial qualities of north European Germanic peoples instead of the racial qualities of the Han Chinese (For instance Greater Germany would have a tendency towards more traditional individualism, gun ownership in at least some forms would be common as a sign of Aryan egalitarianism, never any all-out bans on motorcycles on freeways or many city centres, a more explicit hierarchical society while still caring for the not anti-social and normal but unfortunate in life, and the concept of honor being central instead of face).
I am not saying that. It likely took a long time to write the code and deploy it onto the machines. But the most important claim, from the financial perspective is the claim that it took little time and money to train the AI. That was the efficiency claim that “proved” that DeepSeek was an order of magnitude greater than ChatGPT. So, my claim is that DeepSeek was able to train quite quickly and with little cost, because of the fact that it distilled ChatGPT and probably a few others.
I only briefly mentioned this, but there’s a reason for this. When the news of DeepSeek broke, there was a huge number of people trying it out, and there were dozens or hundreds of people noticing that DeepSeek called itself ChatGPT. It went viral on social media and many websites. These same people continued to poke around and test and take screenshots. But a few days after this went viral, DeepSeek stopped calling itself ChatGPT. It hasn’t called itself ChatGPT for over a week now (I don’t know the exacts).
The main theory is that the DeepSeek developers went straight to work at putting in some kind of patch to prevent DeepSeek from calling itself ChatGPT anymore, since it was a PR nightmare. It took them a few days to develop and deploy, but now it is done.
I don’t think this is necessarily the case.
There’s a lot of debate about how DeepSeek might have distilled OpenAI; I will discuss each one.
I’m not sure if DeepSeek queried directly, or what the uptick in power usage would truly be. We have to take into account the fact that ChatGPT already has high traffic anyways; I have no clue how much, or how much traffic DeepSeek theoretically might add to that number.
Besides the idea that DeepSeek queried the ChatGPT service directly, there that claim that DeepSeek pulled data from ChatGPT using an internal employee of OpenAI (that’s the fiasco with the Microsoft cybersecurity investigation). So reading/writing data would not hit the servers hard at all, since reading and writing data is a quick operation.
Another claim, and this is the best argument against the idea that somebody hacked the ChatGPT data, is that DeepSeek trained using a bunch of publicly available ChatGPT output data. It’s not clear how much of this data is available, and if this is possible. But in this case as well, Deepseek would be able to train on ChatGPT without hitting its servers at all.
This is untrue. I have highlighted the Chinese contribution by having provided links and quotes to articles that illuminated this particular aspect with specific details. The issue is the technical development of a workable system of printing and its social effect on society, including advancing literacy rates.
Contrarily, you appear to be interested in disingenuously claiming credit for technological advances that occurred in Korea and Germany somewhat later by inflating and extending the impact of Chinese contributions, which themselves had limited impact, due to the various reasons that were explained.
You would like to suppress the fact that Chinese printing never reached the necessary “critical mass” for success and trivialize later efforts that did by insinuating that they were of subsidiary importance to the initial concept of movable type originating in China. This undue appropriation is essentially implicit theft.
I am a total layman on the topic of AI. But some questions stick out to me.
Distillation is a well known established technique. Open AI itself uses this technique. Whether it distills models of other companies, I cannot say. But the fact is that different companies can and do distill each others models is a given.
Why is it no other US company did what Deepseek did? Afterall there is a vibrant AI scene in the US. The US is also awash in funding, and the latest hardware is available to them with no sanctions/restrictions?
I knew I would regret exhuming a liar like you from my ignore list.
Welcome back to the list.
Why US Waged AI War on China and Failed
Carl Zha talks to AI expert TP Huang on real reasons why Silicon Valley VCs and tech bros pushed the US tech war against China centering on slowing down China’s AI development by depriving China of computational power thru chip sanctions. How China continue to advance in AI despite US sanctions
Thanks for another lovely picture from China.
Here’s one in return: the Lingering Garden in Suzhou, Jiangsu province.
It’s a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Suzhou actually has eight such gardens on UNESCO’s list. (Link to “Classical Gardens of Suzhou”.)
I almost missed your response.
The cost of distillation (in time and megawatts) grows as the size of the student AI increases. DeepSeek has over 670 billion parameters, about the same as OpenAI’s ChatGPT-4, so even a distillation would have been slow and enormously expensive. Why hasn’t OpenAI complained about a huge and sudden rise in its electricity bill?
The cost of distillation is not only in the quantity of network traffic; there is also the vast amount of computing resources expended by the teaching AI to generate the test cases. If as you claim DeepSeek is a distillation of OpenAI’s chatbot, I must ask again: Why hasn’t OpenAI complained about a huge and sudden rise in its electricity bill?
thank you sir.
brilliant.
Thanks!
Suzhou is high on my list. Maybe I will go next year?
This year I am looking forward to visiting Chengdu, Chongqing and Dujiangyan!
You are wasting your time talking with littlereddot and people like him.
While it is obvious that China is now at the forefront of technological research, the Chinese in general carry a huge chip on their shoulder, the only exceptions being the rapidly disappearing liberal Chinese (Who instead suffer from an idealized view of the late judeo-west) and a few outliers being able to be objective.
China is already ahead of the judeo-west in basic AND applied research and is quickly bypassing whatever tech the judeo-west is capable of producing at all or at costs that are non-prohibitive, and China will (absent nuclear war or the judeo-west first achieving Artificial Generalized Intelligence, and then Superintelligence, the latter being what the judeo-western elite is trying to do as the only possible realistic way, however much a “moonshot”, to contain China’s rise) become a world hegemon in a state lasting for any forseeable future.
This chip on their shoulder, means the Chinese in general are hyper-sensitive to any claims made by westeners of not being the originators of practically everything technological which has had some Chinese conceptual precedent (however non-workable in practice the Chinese precedent was) and are overall just incapable of being somewhat close to objective.
Make a claim of them having copied or gained a lot of knowledge by being given access to western tech since the thawing of relations in the 70s, especially of them having copied (or being given by the Israelis) western military tech (Russian or US), even when this is completey obvious as in the case of the Russian Su-27 Flanker fighter aircraft, and they will respond as the average Jew being called a Jew, while at the same time being completely open about this copying and reverse enginerring while feeling they are talking to other Chinese.
By reverse engineering and not respecting IP rights they gained anything from, in my estimation, 15 to 25+ years (depending on area) of technological expertise for very little effort (Add in mid-Soviet tech transfer and Chinese civilization probably gained overall something around 50 years of post-1920s western tech research).
Of course the judeo-west was stupid to allow outsourcing or any sale of tech, for fast profits, to the Chinese but this does not mean that Chinese civilization did not gain tremendously by this.
They are overall deeply insecure and the more nationalistic ones are straight out neurotic while talking about the technological prowess of the Chinese and Western civilizations, and many will claim credit for almost everything technological and most will accuse one of not giving the Chinese enough credit, as is happening here, while talking to westeners as you, however objective one tries to be and giving credit where it is due (As you are obviously trying).
This will probably pass into a total supremacist attitude that will make the west of 1910s seem positively sympathetic to the rest of the world as the Chinese gain a total confidence as they pass ahead of the declining judeo-west in all technological and societal areas and in general is left behind.
PS. I would assume the concept of face and very high Chinese ethnocentrism plays a central role here.
Honor, in this case meaning giving credit to outgroup where it’s due, the Chinese in general know nothing of.
Sacrifice only became necessary with the fall of Adam and Eve. They proved they were irresponsible with the knowledge of good and evil. Sacrifices became unnecessary after Jesus paid the full price.
I’m not so sure of this. A similar argument could have been made about Russia in the 1930s. A booming economy with cutting edge technology and brand new facilities eclipsing everything in the West.
All of that came to nothing. Partly because all this innovation was based on theft and copying, and partly because the human capital of the country was cannibalized to make it happen. Technologically and economically Russia is today a minor player. You could say they have regressed to the mean.
Technologically I see no particular innovation in China. They have as you say some things that are cost prohibitive in the West, but in terms of new stuff, what do they have to show for? Even the technologies they falsely claim to be theirs are minor innovations. And being an export country, economically it seems to me that China is utterly dependent on the West. That could change, but I suspect they are much too greedy.
The biggest threat to China is cultural influence from the West. This will happen slowly, but humans being humans, it will inevitably happen. You might say that feminism will never become a thing over there, I say the women have a different idea. Even Saudi Arabia is becoming infected with western ideology. Do China think they can do better? I doubt it very much. They are already tied with us to the hip.
Send them all home, confine them to their nation and all problems solved.
Face is all about ego, thus the Chinaman is all about ego, thus he is a danger to the world.
Just need to be put back in their area just like the Japanese were. They will learn.
It can and will be done. With our fortress secure, whatever abominations they do back in their box cannot affect us.
Chinaman, go home.
I think this exchange, which they initiated, has been useful for other readers to learn from. After unnecessarily whining about China not having received “due credit“, they then actually got the attention and recognition they were craving, yet upon closer scrutiny, which revealed the specific details in their proper context, they now appear embarrassed to realize that their boastful claims were exaggerated.
This attitude is similar to instances of paranoid Jewish behavior that so many Americans are already familiar with. Antagonistic guilt-tripping through bullshitting and expressions of cultural chauvinism, as was in evidence in these interactions, will not achieve its desired result but will backfire instead. The concocted notion that we should be indebted to China for the invention of printing is too strained.
“In fact, one of the reasons that in recent years we haven’t had the Islamic terrorism problems that countries such as France have had, or China, is thanks to the previous experience of our police in rooting out terrorism. ”
Is this due to previous practice on the mafia, camorra, etc???
Indeed. Please see the video I posted at comment #478. I’m sure you know about the protests – but you will get some good laughs from the young man from Taiwan talking about the DPP
It’s divide and rule for them. Vietnam was a problem…. But then it wasn’t. And so since China is a bigger problem – Vietnamese imperialism (and communism) is made excuses for. Look at how they try to court Mongolia now so they can disrupt both Russia and China. When the Mongols were really the one Asian society that really DID want to invade the west. These people are the biggest hypocrites in the world.
Vietnam left Cambodia after it was depleted trying to get back parts of the border than China took in 1979. When Vietnam left Cambodia – China agreed to settle the border and gave them back the land. China doesn’t work off of four year election cycles. I know you might be shocked your media and history books lied to you again (to make you think China lost) – but you can go look up the border agreements yourself.
Thanks, now South Bridge in Chengdu is on my list!
So is Zhangjiajie:
Another UNESCO World Heritage Site.
You are right so far as nothing is certain, but all trends point towards the Chinese becomeing at least as powerful as the US of the late 80s, with the minor obstacle being demographics, which anyway is about a generation away from the start of a collapse, a problem well within the huge state capacity of the Chinese regime to handle, and a problem that may become moot anyway at the speed at which humanoid robotics and the race towards AGI are advancing.
If the west somehow were to cast of the Jewish yoke fast, I could see another outcome as likely, under an anti-liberal European-Anglo empire ruled by a benevolent and competent elite, with very little checks and balances.
But you are also right in another more fundamental way.
Although the Chinese have gained a very thorough enough understanding of the scientific method to make evolutionary advances in the sciences and have a higher IQ than the average European and produces at least 5x as many engineers as the US, there is more to scientific advancement than that, at least as pertaining to revolutionary scientific advancements.
Askenazi Jewish IQ (Which I estimate at about 110, not 115 as is commonly cited, but still as much higher than European gentiles as the difference between West-Europeans and Iranians) alone cannot explain the huge Ashkenazi overrepresentation in Nobel prizes – which represents revolutionary advancements in science – compared to the on average significantly less intelligent but much more numerous European Gentiles.
What explains this is probably what Emil Kirkegaard has termed the P-factor, the psychopathy factor if I remember correctly, psychopathy here used in the sense of psychological illness and not the dark triad, in this case the relevant factor being the proclivity towards strange or unusual thoughts.
I find the hypothesis that the higher rates of mental illness, especially of schizophrenia and neurotic thought patterns found among Ashkenazi Jews is also part of what makes them very good at thinking outside the box and making revolutionary scientific discoveries, very plausible.
Meanwhile the East Asian high IQ peoples have a lower incidence of mental illness including schizophrenia than Europeans.
But I fear that we humans are anyway at the limits of human reason as regards revolutions in the fundamental sciences, such as physics or chemistry, and I expect very few new revolutionary advancements in the fundamental sciences from humans in their current form.
Many have noted how the field of theoretical physcis have made no major progress and failed to produced any interesting testable theories in the last 3-4 decades, and Nobel prizes now go to discoveries that is of relatively minor importance compared to during the first half of the 20th century.
Theoretical physics are stuck in the mess of string theory that we humans just cannot make sense of, and I suspect that we never will without the help of technological advances leading to either biological or artificial superintelligece.
Even though I am an idealist in that I believe consciousness precedes matter in a fundamental way, it is a fact the human brain is a product of evolution, first slow for several million or hundred thousand years and then happening at a rate several order of magnitudes faster as soon as human civilization made humans able to consciously select the fittest mate (As persuasively argued for in the book The 10.000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution by Cochran and Harpending), then suddenly stopping at about 1950, and our reasoning and imaginative capabilities would obviously be restrained by this history, at least at some point, and not being unlimited.
But I may be wrong that we are at the limit of human intelligence, regardless of the stale situation in theoretical physics, and that humans will make truly revolutionary discoveries soon again in the fundamental sciences, and in that case I agree they are more likely to come from the judeo-west (What I call the remains of Western Civilization existing after about 1963).
But I can assure you that there is evolutionary technological innovation happening in China.
I have gained, for a westener, a pretty deep understanding of Chinese technological advances since circa 2000 primarily by being active on a forum focused on Chinese military tech called sinodefenceforum, an english language forum where some of the best and most objective westeners interested in Chinese military technology gather (although many are much too sinophilic to ever having mentioned the obvious advantages China gained by tech transfers and stealing IP, although this point is honestly moot as of today) together with a lot of Chinese people, pretty much all with a huge chip on their shoulder.
The really interesting part is that this forum has since years had long threads which also covers Chinese general scientific advances, technological advances in semiconductor production and design, the aerospace industry, aircraft engines, shipbuilding, rockets for space travel, electric vehicles, artificial intelligence, drones and on.
A good example of how hard it is to stop Chinese technological advances is how the judeo-west, of course too late, tried shutting off the support of advanced semiconductors and semiconductor production machinery to the Chinese.
The Chinese have in less than five years caught up to being able to indigenously produce chips with the transistor size, in easily explained terms, that was state of the art in the west five-six years ago, and from a semiconductor design standpoint is about as advanced as western designs from that period as well, or perhaps a bit earlier (but the last thing is honestly hard for me to tell as I am not in any way even a laymen’s specialist in that field).
Another example is how they now produce as good or better smartphones than any other country on the planet, and Huawei managed their way out of being denied access to Android easily, and produce their own Systems On a Chip with CPUs and GPU at sufficiently small node sizes, and large enough quantities.
Perhaps the best example is how they now make much better electric cars than Tesla, the only close competitor, that are also much cheaper (I intensively hate electric cars, but the Chinese need them because the want to become close to energy independent from oil and the pollution from ICE engines was becoming unbearable in the Chinese megacities).
Also, as regards EVs, the chinese are by all accounts much closer to producing batteries of the next evolutionary stage – solid state batteries – that actually may make EVs start making sense for the average man or family that sometimes needs to drive 400 miles in a non-warm climate without making four 45-min stops to charge the damn batteries on the way.
It is my estimation you are underestimating the power of
1 A benevolent highly competent elite
2 A mixed economy with intense competition
3 Lots of well-educated intelligent and proficient engineers graduating every year
4 An immense industrial base, totalling as much of world capacity as the US had during WWII (Add in that total world capacity is much, much larger today)
5 An indigenous market that is so large as to, with some relatively modest state economic incentives, support the economical introduction of new kinds of technologies by itself
6 The fact that most modern technologies are of a dual-use kind, ie has military applications too.
For instance, the production of immense amounts of Gallium Nitride transmit and receive modules for use in 5G cell tower transceiver antennas, that use antennas of an active phased array type – the same antenna type used in modern radars – has also made it very economical for the Chinese to set up production of slightly better mil-spec modules that goes straight into some of the best radar systems the world has ever seen.
As a white racialist I certainly wish this wasn’t soo, as the Chinese have very little affective empathy for outgroups, although they are not “cartoonishly evil” as Jews in general are.
But in countries where they make up the elite except for Singapore, for instance in Malaysia, they quite ruthlessly exploit the local poor majorities and at the same time take for granted those poor majorities should be thankful for just the chance of employment as a poorly treated and poorly paid gardener, maid or driver.
Likewise they are not well-liked as tourists in almost all Southeast Asian countries, due to them not showing basic decency towards and often disrespecting the locals, with European tourists (Israelis are banned outright in many establishments in some countries) being much better liked.
And their help to the “global south” is obviously done for soft power reasons, but as it is much more roooted in reality, often plastered with signs that says something like “A Gift from China”, and as the Chinese since the 1990s does not go around fighting wars for Israel giving the judeo-west an intense credibility problem, the Chinese aid has been much more effective in generating good will than the trillions of dollars of aid from the judeo-west, primarily European in origin, that has been poored into Subsaharan Africa.
All this points to a not so pleasant future for the rest of humanity that does not possess a lot of nuclear weapons and advanced means of delivery, especially as in about two decades drones and autonomous vehicles and humanoid robots will make the cost of war in humans lives for the most technological advanced countries basically zero.
I recommend you visit http://www.sinodefenceforum.com and find and browse some of the abovementioned threads and make up your own mind regarding if real innovation is happening in China.
Jewish Nobels are, at least in part, the result of nepotism. Why do you hate EVs? They are constantly improving, offer an opportunity to clean city air and reduce greenhouse gas emissions (you’re not an anthropogenic climate destabilisation denier, are you?) and turn energy inputs into work much more efficiently that ICE vehicles. Thanks for the sources-if innovation is NOT occurring in China, it’s going against the experience from most of Chinese history. I’m sure you’re familiar with Needham et al’s ‘Science and Civilization in China’.
If you have not, yet, had problems with so-called ‘Islamic terrorism’, that is because the patrons of ‘Islamic terrorism’, principally the USA and Israel, have not yet decided that you should. After Ireland’s stalwart defence of Gaza against the Judeonazi Holocaust there, I expect Ireland will suffer some ‘Islamist’ retribution, soon.
Probably the slimiest Sinophobe racist of the menagerie. Shit-scared of China’s rise, so he hides his head under the covers of crude and typically arrogant denial, and hopes that the yellow boogie-man goes away, and leaves the world to be ruled by White, Western, demi-gods like himself. As for Western ideology ie pornography, greedy self-interest, indifference to the suffering of others, unbridled arrogance and aggression, contempt for other cultures, ‘influencers’, debased popular ‘culture’, sham ‘democracy’ etc, we’d better hope that China influences us.
Ahem! So all those stabbings, car rammings and drive by shootings in Israel are not “Islamic terrorism”???
I go by the standard: If it looks like Islamic terrorism, sounds like Islamic terrorism, and feels like Islamic terrorism, then it most likely is “Islamic terrorism”!
This for instance is Islamic terrorism
https://nypost.com/2024/08/11/us-news/jewish-man-stabbed-by-attacker-shouting-free-palestine-report/
Jewish man stabbed by attacker shouting ‘Free Palestine’ and antisemitic slurs in NYC
As is this
As you were keeping up the debate for the benefit of others – which is, or should be, the goal for anybody debating on the internet – to show others how the average Chinese perceives himself and his civilization and the deep insecurities underlying his behavior, I tip my hat to you.
It’s not that I really dislike the Chinese. I have very little real life personal experience with them and no reason to hold any grudge against them, and in ways admire many aspects of their societal order which is almosgt perfectly adapted to the Han Chinese people.
Of course they seem very alien compared to the Japanese, as Germans and Scandinavians a high trust people very much valuing honor, though Japanese are less high-trust but more highly value honor.
In Scandinavia we commonly make a distinction between cultures based on guilt (feelings of guilt being something a person imposes on himself, being contingent on how the person views himself) and cultures based on shame (feelings of shame being something that others/society imposes on a person, being contingent on how others view that person).
Chinese compared to the Japanese, are more like Middle Easteners compared to Northern Europeans. in that they value far more how they are seen by others, ie the concept of face, than being honorable from their own personal point of view.
My only deeper experience with Chinese people is for years trying to objectively discuss Chinese military technological advances on a forum frequented by many Chinese, but their character just makes honest objective discussion impossible, or at least did when almost all of their systems were straight up improved copies of or reverse engineered Russian designs or reverse engineered versions of western designs.
Now instead a growing implicitly violent supremacism is becoming palpable there, especially after pictures of the first non-secret flights, indicating advanced prototype status, of Chinese 6th generation fighter aircraft, far surpassing current possible western designs, leaked on the internet around Christmas.
Your comparison with discussion with Jews is very apt, and honestly I had not thought of it that way, strangely enough (perhaps not so strange as I’ve avoided all discussion with Jews, except the obviously reasonable ones, for many years as there is nothing to be gained).
Sincere thanks for making me aware of the similarities.
Please take no offense, but I do not care to engage in a conversation for a global audience, nor to debate random foreigners online.
If my comment were intended for Colombians to read, then of course the comment would politely have taken Colombian sensibilities into account. However, since the comment was not intended for Colombians to read, Colombian reaction to the comment does not interest me.
I am not obliged to prove to you, here, that the Panama Canal is U.S. American.
Why is that a given? Which companies?
There are many reasons companies avoid this, both technical and ethical. You can lookup articles on the technical downsides; the biggest is that the distilled model is always inferior and dependent on its teachers. Indeed, DeepSeek is inferior to ChatGPT in almost every way.
Now, regarding the ethical dimension. I work in one of America’s biggest financial corporations, and I have firsthand experience that big corporations take ethics extremely seriously, and are perpetually under scrutiny from competitors to remain ethical. Since distillation is against ChatGPT’s terms of service (and likely many other companies’s terms), and since American companies are in the same legal sphere as ChatGPT, I’d take it as a given that American companies would not try to distill it.
Now….as for small unknown startups? Perhaps some of them do it. There are oodles of them out there.
The idea that you assume that companies are all cheating their pants off is “a given” is, to me, a problem. This is a pattern with the form of argument of conspiratorial thinkers. To the conspiracist or the angry counter-culturalist, every cynical conclusion is just “a given,” and after a while, one’s own biases lead one to absurd conclusions, like the idea that COVID was an anti-China bioweapon.
bla bla bla.
You overdosed on Copium again.
You guys spew such alot of words in an effort to ease your sense of insecurity.
What’s the point of arguing?
Just record your beliefs on China now, put it in an envelope and mark it 2025.
In 2035, reopen your envelope, and we can have this conversation again.
I totally agree. Everybody goes back to the lands of their origin.
That means you go back to Europe too, and please take Trump and Biden with you.
Meanwhile, I am already home.
Duh.
I think you should investigate before offering your conjecture.
I disagree, but for the sake of argument, ….. Let just assume you are correct….
It perfectly illustrates your problem. Shared by the rest of the West.
You guys search for biggest bestest greatest….all of that is not necessary. What is important it to have the biggest benefit for the lowest cost.
It is like buying a fancy watch for $100,000 which can tell time to an accuracy of 0.0001 seconds.
Is it really worth it for the vast majority of a population when what they actually need in their everyday lives is a $100 watch that can tell time to an accuracy of 0.1 seconds?
You will notice that this attitude was inherited from the Germans in WW2. Where they prided themselves in producing finely engineered tanks and other weapons. Whereas the Soviets did not have such priorities. The Soviets instead wanted simple, reliable weapons that could be produced at scale. The results are clear for all to see….and in case you say this was because of USA……80% of German casualties were at the hands of the Soviets.
It is only framed as “Cheating” after Deepseek released its R1 and a myriad Western companies needed to find excuses that “China is Cheating”
This is what your own google says about the morality/legality of distillation:
While AI distillation itself isn’t inherently considered “cheating,” utilizing it to directly copy or replicate another company’s large language model without permission, particularly by accessing their API to train a similar model, could be considered a violation of intellectual property and potentially considered “cheating” depending on the context and terms of service involved, especially if done without proper attribution or disclosure; this is a complex issue with ongoing legal debate, particularly regarding the protection of AI models through copyright laws.
Key points to consider:
Common practice:
Model distillation is a widely used technique within the AI industry to improve efficiency and reduce computational costs, often done internally by companies to create smaller, optimized versions of their own large models.
Ethical concerns:
When a company uses another company’s model without authorization to train a competing model through distillation, it raises ethical concerns regarding intellectual property infringement, especially if the original model is not open-source.
Legal complexities:
Current legal frameworks may not be fully equipped to address AI model protection through distillation, making it challenging to prove a violation in court.
Example: DeepSeek controversy:
A recent example is the case of DeepSeek, a Chinese AI company, which was accused by OpenAI of using their models to train their own through distillation, potentially violating OpenAI’s terms of service.
Is DeepSeek’s AI ‘distillation’ theft? OpenAI seeks answers over …
30 Jan 2025 — The practice is common internally at many companies looking to scale down the size of their models while offering simil…
On how common distillation is:
Yes, AI distillation, also known as knowledge distillation, is considered a common practice within the AI industry, especially when companies want to create smaller, faster models with similar performance to larger ones by transferring knowledge from a larger “teacher” model to a smaller “student” model; however, concerns arise when companies potentially use this technique to replicate proprietary models without permission, as seen in recent controversies like the DeepSeek case with OpenAI
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, but I’d been under the gun getting out a very long article of my own:
https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-charles-a-lindbergh-and-the-america-first-movement/
I think Steve began very actively posting on his Substack about six months ago, and since then his posting on his website has dropped by about 80%. So although he hasn’t officially said anything, it’s very possible he’s pretty much moved all his activity over there.
One thing I really should do as a consequence is move Andrew Anglin’s work over to that column since he’s really an extremely prolific blogger rather than a columnist, and the very large number of his posts take up so much space above all the other columnists.
One thing about the Type 052D…. It actually carries 88 cells. 64 of the VLS – which can fire various types of large missiles as you note… But then there are 24 separate cells just for the short range air defense missiles (HHQ-10)
As long as whites are confined to Europe then no problem…. Make and keep your fortress in Europe… Otherwise you are a hypocrite. But that probably doesn’t bother you.
Yes I know – your robbery can have provisions made for it – but no one else. In any event – comparing Panama and Taiwan is ridiculous. And if you don’t want people to challenge your comments then you shouldn’t make them in a public forum.
Plus the US signed a treaty… But yeah I know that means nothing to the US of A. Destroying others is the globe’s business… Not just yours.
Assuming the U.S. is still a functioning polity.
The entire world has turned against us because of Trump’s self destructive ultimatum to Hamas. And while I applaud his domestic policies he’s surrounded himself with other Zionist stooges and if he send troops into Gaza it will mean war with the entire Islamic world along with Russia and China.
As things stand now, more Americans are dying each year from fentanyl than all the Russian troops killed since the start of their SMO.
Many Southern whites who have been traditionally the backbone of the U.S. military’s Combat Arms services now realize their true enemy is the U.S. government and are refusing to fight any more (((Banker’s Wars.)))
https://identitydixie.com/2023/07/03/military-recruitment-and-secession-a-pathway-to-victory/
And it’s not just our Southron brothers. Many in the Rocky Mountain States also want to peel away from D.C. as does Texas and many of the Border States if Trump doesn’t bring back all the troops from Europe and Asia and station the required 30-35 Divisions needed to seal our border with Mexico and begin counter insurgency ops against Cartel assets already inside out country.
But since he’s so beholden to his (((handlers))) I reckon we’re going to get dragged into an endless war in West Asia which will eventually draw in Turkiye, Russia and China.
Perhaps, some of the American Orthodox Christians who have emigrated to Russia can continue this conversation since by 2030. By then we’ll be bogged down by endless wars abroad, civil war and a Narco State on the home front.
Forget about engaging with that cow shit eating Pajeet.
I speak for a lot of Americans when I state that most Right leaning Americans hate the Europeans and their faggot shitlib values. They’re a combination of free loaders and lackeys that we spend a lot of money on to bribe them into doing our bidding.
Aside from us, many Central European nations and Russia despises Western Europe as much as the Chinese and Japanese despise each other. Except the Asiatics are trading with each other while we’ve isolated ourselves and Europe from 85+ % of the world with our warlike foreign policy.
Adding to the proxy war against Russia, we are also trying to instigate a color Revolution against Serbia which Clinton had bombed back in 1999. That, ironically, has caused many Central European and Slavic nations to sign agreements with China which has sold them some modern air defense systems..
Once NATO breaks apart, I wouldn’t be surprised if Poland and Germany decides to establish direct trade relations with Russia and China.
That was one of the most exhaustive and well written columns on the historical animosity of most Americans to getting entangled in foreign wars which doesn’t concern us in the least.
Going back to the Yellow Journalism in 19th Century which blamed Spaniard saboteurs for the explosion of the USS Maine to Saddam’s purported WMD threat to us to Putin being the new Hitler, I can’t think of a single instance of any foreign armed conflict which wasn’t based on fabricated bullshit.
As a regular here, I have no problem with the present set up. I often go to DS to read Anglin’s columns that aren’t posted here but I still make time to check out American Pravda, as well as anything new from Pepe Escobar, Paul Craig Roberts, Jared Taylor, Ilana Mercer, etc.
Dear me-how amusing. Pretentious pseudo-intellectual faux sociological and ethnological clap-trap. How the Whiteys fear, and hate, China, and the Chinese. It’s delicious.
The figure of “8 times” doesn’t come from the Indeed website.
The part of my comment, which seems to be the only part you’ve read, was only a cross-check.
The figure of “8 times” comes from other parts of my comment. I’ll just copy and paste:
You seem to have read only one part of my comment, namely the part that starts with “that aligns with information we can find elsewhere online” and end with the links to the Indeed site. It also include a quote from another site, which is where I got figures for Chinese salaries.
What you didn’t get is that whole section was only a cross-check. I had already determined that the Chinese make 8 times less money, using the other method. Since it was only a cross-check, I wasn’t careful in that part of my comment, and I made some mistakes. I’m sorry about that. I looked at the numbers again, and for those jobs, the average pay in China is only 5 times lower, not 8 times lower. But this doesn’t contradict the fact that the average Chinese makes 8 times less money, because Chinese and American people hold different jobs (for example, in proportion to population there are way more farmers and less software engineers in China than in the US).
My point is that it simply isn’t true that the standards of living are higher in China than in the West. It’s the other way around. If you look for information honestly and do the math honestly, you’ll come to the same conclusion.
Malaysia is not China.
Chinaman go home.
Not related to the current ongoing colonization of the world by the Chinamen.
Chinaman go home.
It would be best if you go on your own. Never fret we are getting ready to start showing you the door. Trump is making the first moves. When the young Aryan men take back over the West the final solution will be enacted for all interlopers and colonists.
Thanks for the update on the sentiments of folks in the USA.
Personally, I think that the USA got way larger than your Founding Fathers ever intended it to be. If they had known it would get that large, they would have surely written a different Constitution than they did.
As someone who lives in one of the smallest countries in the world, the only thing I can say is that “small ain’t that bad”. There are some advantages in being small.
That is true. Once I ascertain that the commenter is neither interested in the truth, and depends on biased cherry picking of facts, I do not bother to read more.
Just look at what you have written and I quote below
How in the world did you cross check with a website that only lists salaries in the USA, and does not have listings in China? I even checked if it has listings in Paris,France. It does not.
You have clearly done an unsatisfactory job of research before forming an opinion. You have rather cherry selected available facts in order to reinforce your preconceived notion.
And this preconceived notion is one that has been fed to you by your Western Media…..which not so long told you that Saddam had WMDs and needed to be invaded. A million dead Iraqis later, and it seems the vast majority of Westerners have not learned their lesson.
This is why I tell you. Don’t bother doing research on the internet. There is too much dust and smokescreen for you to get a good picture of China. Just buy a plane ticket and see it for yourself. Go to a bar, or restaurant. Chat with a local Chinese and find out what their lives are really like.
China now offers visa free travel. It is easier than ever.
Isn’t better to just go see it with your own eyes, rather than rely on what a 3rd party writes about it?
Have courage, go see it for yourself.
Can China AI Breakthrough Continue With US Chip Sanction?
LOL, why are you so inconsistent?
Those of European descent goes to Europe, those of Asian descent go to Asia.
Unless you want to pick a specific country in Europe according to your genes? Where is it? Pakistani filled UK? Or Algerian filled France? Or Turkish filled Germany?
If your ancestry is from Eastern Europe then maybe you might have a better time.
So which country do you want to go back to?
Hopefully not. I admire the Irish stand on the genocide in Gaza.
Chinaman the immigrant interloper eggshell ego cracks yet again.
Malaysia is not China. Chinaman go home.
How do you know I am not home? No, you don’t.
Chinaman go home.
Yes it is pretty much acknowledged now that the Chinese embassy was bombed in Serbia when Clinton was president because China was helping Serbia covertly against NATO in their attack on the Serbs (and Serbia in turn let China see the wreckage of the stealth fighter they shot down). But yeah fast forward 30 years and China doesn’t need to be bashful in helping the Serbs. They can do it openly now. They flew those on huge air transports. Yeah Serbia was going to buy the Russian equivalent but couldn’t because of the sanctions. So their long term friend China stepped in.
I laugh at the people who claim China hates whites. Are Serbians not white now? China and Serbia have been friends for decades – lol. And the broken friendship with the Soviets was about political doctrine – not race. That’s why now that political doctrine is not an issue – Russia and China are back to being good friends again. But yeah I know some don’t consider Russians really white. So I guess those people would still say so.
” So all those stabbings, car rammings and drive by shootings in Israel”
Occupied territory… freedom fighters NOT terrorists.
No, the biggest technical obstacle is that in a distillation the teaching AI needs to expend an enormous amount of energy, especially for a student as big as the teacher. (DeepSeek is about as large as ChatGPT-4.) As far as I know, the top US AIs are all inside commercial companies; do you think that DeepSeek could possibly steal millions of dollars worth of electricity from them without them noticing it and stopping it?
Only slightly, and probably because it is much younger than ChatGPT. However, DeepSeek is superior to nearly all other AIs in the US, including Meta’s very expensively trained LLaMA. See the Leaderboard of Chatbot Arena (link).
LOL, as Unz likes to says nowadays.
An emotional chip-on-the-shoulder-carrying Chinese lacking in reading comprehension because of a neurosis get’s one answer.
As to me “coping”:
How is openly and clearly stating that China is far ahead of the judeo-west in reseach as well as technologically and societally (and will surely handle it’s demographic problem) and almost certainly will come to rule the wold for centuries in a Chinese national socialist state “coping”?
As to your argument about that the Type 052D/DL really having more than 64 cells, by that line of argument an Arleigh Burke/class destroyer equipped with a Mk49 Guided Missile Launching System that carries 21 RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missiles – an equivalent to the the HHQ-10 but with better kinematic performance in later blocks owing purely to larger size – and which also carries 8x RGM-84 Harpoon missiles in racks would have 125 cells.
I was of course, as is standard in modern naval vessel discussions, referring to the Type 052D/DL having 64 VERTICAL LAUNCH cells, while A DDG-51 class destroyer has 96 VERTICAL LAUNCH cells.
I also fairly and objectively noted that the Chinese UVLS cells, as you certainly don’t know, are larger in size and has a quadratic side, viewed from above, of 850 mm compared to the much smaller 650 mm sides of the US Mk41 VLS cells.
This gives Chinese VERTICAL LAUNCH cells an area 75% larger than US VERTICAL LAUNCH cells, meaning they are able to launch roughly Iskander-sized – I use a commonly known missile so neurotic ignorant people such as you may possible understand – Anti Ship Ballistic Missiles and at least is able to quadpack – carry four missiles per VERTICAL LAUNCH cell – much longer range missiles than US VERTICAL LAUNCH CELLS, perhaps a PLAN equivalent of the Sky Dragon 100 – as a SAM is called when exported, or an unknown missile – with about twice the range of the US quadpacked missile RIM-162 Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile, or maybe even able to “octapack” a near eqivalent of the ESSM although we have no idea if either is the case as it is very easy to hide from prying eyes or even sattellites, and it would be extremely strange if the PLAN hadn’t thought of developing a missile for quadpacking missiles in their VERTICAL LAUNCH cells.
That, also adding that the Chinese destroyers also has more modern main radars as well as a better sea-skimming missile search radar, is why it is was very strange that a US admiral in charge of the Pacific Fleet was not being obejctive (seemingly being just as insular in his thinking as you are – but at least he has the defense available that he is lying to keep morale up, which you have not) and was considering a Type 052D/DL as ONLY equivalent to 0.6 of a DDG-51.
This when in reality, it is probably equal to something like 0.75 to 1.25 (Depending on if octapacked missiles exist) when defending against anti-ship missiles aimed at itself or vessels in a Surface Action Group it is part of and equal to something like 1.2 to 1.5 of a DDG-51 when performing Anti-Ballistic Missile Defense.
You are in effect muted.
Then you should be opposed to China grabbing Taiwan, and all for Chunkland divesting themselves of Hong Kong, Macao, Tibet, Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia.
The city of Xanadu will finally become a Mongol Heritage site, as it was meant to be, instead of Chinese one. HUZZAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
Israel belongs to the Jews … because they fought for it …. and won …. 4 times! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Because it is not! It is a copy paste society currently facing at least a decade of miserable copy paste results. LOL!!!!
I remember reading that a Chinese aircraft carrier replaced the Western electronics in its radar system with Chink electronics ….only for the range of its radar to be cut in half! So Sad! LOL!!!!!!!
Copy Paste Results! LOL!!!!!!!
I am not the one riled up….Refugee in Asia
Are your panties in a twist because you can’t choose between going back from Korea to the US, then from US to Europe?
Or do you want to go from Korea to Europe directly?
It doesn’t matter, because you won’t be able to find an English Teacher job in Europe.
Time to learn new skills, like flipping burgers….oh sorry, flipping Hamburger Steaks in Hamburg.
Duh. You assume other people are as stupid as you.
You are from Northeastern USA…that pretty much qualifies you the name Yankee
Then you taught English in various parts of Asia.
In China you got fired when they were raised standards and let the riff raff go.
Now you are in Korea bowing deeply as you can to receive paychecks from your yellow employers.
You are desperate not to return to the USA because you would become one of these:
Taiwan is China
You should be opposed to India grabbing Kashmir.
Besides, before telling others what to do, you and your kin should be solving your own problems first
I’ll answer by asking: if it’s easier to save money in China than in the West, how come that Chinese people who live in the West manage to send to China most of their income?
Spain is one of the poorest Western countries (though of course it’s much richer than China). In 2009 there were 145k Chinese citiens living in Spain. Let’s round it up to 150k. In 2012 they sent China $ 991 millions, which equates to 1353 millions in 2024 dollars. That’s over 9000 dollars each.
Judging from the figures available for disposable income in Spain, you can see that they sent home the majority of their income.
Sources:
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2015-06/22/content_21069394.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_people_in_Spain
https://www.statista.com/statistics/899289/average-annual-net-income-per-person-in-spain-by-age-group/
This completely refutes your idea that it’s easier to save money in China than in the West.
Westerners are squanderers. The Chinese are frugal and thrifty. So the Chinese put away a large portion of their money wherever they live.
And Westerners do not. If a Westerner lives in China with a Chinese salary, he will not save 44% of his pay. He will spend it all in consumer goods, just like most of us do in the West. In fact over there a Westerner will find it much harder to save money than if he lives in the West with a Western salary.
There is one blogger, Money Moustache, who for years has preached that it’s very easy to save the majority of your income if you live in the rich West.
But for most of us it’s psychologically difficult. The average middle class Westerner is addicted to consumerism and mindless extravagant spending, and doesn’t know it.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-zero-to-hero-in-one-blog-post/
Look. I’m not anti-China in the way you perhaps think I am. The Chinese have many admirable qualities, including their propensity for saving. My problem is with idiots who admire China for the wrong reasons. They’d be right if they said “we should save money like the Chinese”, but instead they say “everything is cheap in China, let’s convert to Chinese style communism” which is bullshit. As I’ve explained, prices are low in China because salaries are even lower. Here in the rich West with our incomes we can afford a lot more stuff. That is so obvious, I feel like I’m saying that the Pope is Catholic, or that bears shit in woods.
Also, a quibble. The World Bank page you link to does not shows the household savings rate. It shows the gross domestic savings rates, which include savings by corporations and the government. That is what the figure of 44% refers to. The actual amount that Chinese households save must be lower, but I can’t find it. For the same reason, it’s not true Europeans save 26% of their income. As I’ve explained, Westerners barely save anything.
Most Taiwanese disagree:
Nope. Not at all. Taiwan’s GDP per capita is $32466. The province nearest to Taiwan is one of the richest, Fujian, and its GDP is only $18429, so it’s much poorer than Taiwan. In fact, ALL provinces are poorer than Taiwan. Even the cities of Beijing and Shangai are poorer than Taiwan.
The only mainland cities (prefectures) richer than Taiwan are Hong Kong and Macau. But those are cities, so to be fair we must compare them not to Taiwan, but to the city of Taipei. All I can find about the GDP per capita of Taipei is that it’s over 60k, so it’s richer than Hong Kong at least (I can’t compare it to Macau because I can’t find precise data).
It is very damning for the PRC that its two richest cities, Hong Kong and Macau, are the ones that were ruled by the West until recently, and even now they are governed according to the principle “one country, two systems”.
Some of the sources I used:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_administrative_divisions_by_GDP_per_capita
https://www.focus-economics.com/country-indicator/taiwan/gdp-per-capita-usd
https://tinyurl.com/ms9hxwt2
Originally, the individual states were independent and the federal government held very little power.
There was a lot of heated debate between the Federalists and Anti-Federalists. The Federalists were only able to ratify the Constitution after agreeing to include the Ten Articles of the Bill of Rights proposed by the latter. The Bill of Rights has been violated so often to the point where it is a dead letter because We The People failed to hold the government accountable.
Taiwan was always known as the Republic Of China when it was ruled by the KMT. President Nixon himself recognized the One China Policy. That was back when we were engaged in a proxy war against China and the USSR in Vietnam.
Today a lot of the wealthy CCP and KMT families are inter-marrying. Also, the Chinese on both sides of the Straits look to Singapore as their ideal model so there isn’t any conflict of interests.
If you look at Kinmen Island which is administered by Taiwan, they depend on China for both their supply of freshwater as well as infrastructure maintenance.
Didn’t India also face an uprising from the Tamils in Sri Lanka when they tried to intervene in the civil war between them and the Sinhalese?
Brazil is a larger country than India and has serious crime problems but even their favellas (slums) are cleaner than India.
India’s infrastructure is so shitty, around 60,000 people die from snake bites each year – the most in the world – because they can’t get to the hospitals in time. Lots of Pajeets here are so afraid of snakes that even a picture of a Rattle Snake on my T -shirt scares them. 😆
Even Africa, which has snakes with more deadly venom, do not suffer as many snake bite fatalities.
Haha, never said where I live or where I am from little Chinaman.
And that has nothing to do with you being a Chinaman colonist in Malaysia.
Chinaman go home.
I read a book about the Chinese Red Army/PLA that was published in 1972. Regarding the Sino-Soviet Border clashes of 1969; the Author (Gerard Corr?) observed that any Sino-Russo clashes – past, present, future – are only temporary. And any third party who tries to turn them against each other does so at their own peril.
As an American, I love Trump’s domestic policies. But, in this interview, both Xi and Putin knows it’s a ploy to try and break apart the Russian-Chinese alliance. It’s not going to work because they’re both always planning three steps ahead of us. Very disrespectful on Trump’s part.
Video Link
As Putin said in the interview with Tucker Carlson, we can’t choose our neighbors any more than we can choose our relatives. So the long term goal is always peaceful co-existence.
Today, the more the traitors in the U.S. government tries to divide them the closer the relationship between China and Russia. Having been a former small arms instructor, I’m really impressed with scale of cross training between those two countries.
“I think Steve began very actively posting on his Substack about six months ago, and since then his posting on his website has dropped by about 80%.”
Yes.
“So although he hasn’t officially said anything, it’s very possible he’s pretty much moved all his activity over there.”
So, in the end, you don’t know if your star blogger is completely finished on your site.
“One thing I really should do as a consequence is move Andrew Anglin’s work over to that column since he’s really an extremely prolific blogger rather than a columnist, and the very large number of his posts take up so much space above all the other columnists.”
LOL, you do that. He’s insane. Seriously.
I fucking explained it to you. I checked DIFFERENT WEBSITES. I checked Chinese salaries from one website, and American salaries from another website.
Says the one who said that average Chinese income is 18000 dollars, which is way off the mark and it should be immediately obvious that it’s completely absurd, when Chinese GDP per capita is lower than that, as another commenter pointed out.
But why am I even talking to you.
Silly me for thinking it was possible to have an intelligent discussion here.
All you have said is right.
Don’t bother with Humungus tho. He is just a Pajeet troll.
I also ran out of “agree” buttons, so I will say thanks for your insightful message on #543
You don’t have to. The Chinese Secret Service have spies everywhere, dontcha know?
Hell, your Korean boss whose ass you kiss everyday might just be a Chinky spy in disguise.
And are you comparing apple to apple? Different websites use different metrics.
Your research is sloppy. That is why you get your silly 8-10X difference.
Why don’t you use this website that does measure US and China factory worker wages.
https://www.erieri.com/salary/job/factory-worker/china
https://www.erieri.com/salary/job/factory-worker/united-states
Here is a website that measures both US and China Software Engineer wages.
https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/shanghai-chn
https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-francisco-bay-area
Hey, don’t take my word for it. This is not the same source that I used, but the figures are close.
For your convenience, $1430 x 12 = $17,160
https://teamedupchina.com/complete-guide-to-salaries-in-china/
Duh, not every country purposefully fluffs up its GDP numbers so that its citizens can feel good about themselves.
There are fundamental ways that China and USA differ in the way they calculate GDP.
For example the USA uses imputations….aka “presumed costs”. For example if you own and live in a house that can be rented at $3000. Your government counts it as contributing to GDP even though nobody paid you any rent for it. The Chinese do not use silly imputations like these.
https://www.bea.gov/help/faq/488
The UK even includes prostitution and drugs to fluff up GDP calculations.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/drugs-prostitution-they-are-part-gdp-too-u-k-says-n118286
Also inflated prices in USA contribute to an inflated GDP. A CT scan in the USA will cost $3000, while one in China will cost $100. All of this goes into GDP calculations and skews it in favour of the USA.
You guys really should educate yourselves more before shouting your opinions about China all over the place.
How about “Let’s convert to Chinese style communism so we can afford to buy a house”? China’s home ownership rate is 96.0 percent. The US rate is 65.9 percent. (Link.)
In the rich US with your incomes you can afford more of everything except what you really need. See the home ownership rates above; see also the prices of cars and food.
However, as I noted in an earlier thread (link), Shanghai is rapidly catching up to Taiwan. (Why Shanghai? Because by itself this city has more people than Taiwan.)
In Shanghai, the GDP per capita, in PPP terms, is about $44,000; the corresponding figure for Taiwan is $54,000. And Shanghai (and China in general) is growing much more rapidly than Taiwan; it won’t be long before the people in one of China’s largest cities pass Taiwan in real wealth.
If we judge by home ownership rates (see link above), Hong Kong is an impending disaster: 50.4 percent for Hong Kong, 96.0 percent for China in general. So the US and Hong Kong have a lot of fictitious money that can’t buy much of what really matters.
US GDP per capita is a meaningless figure because of the international reserve status of the USD. The USA can borrow as much as possible from rest of the world by merely printing USD out of thin air and use those printed USD to buy everything it needs from the world on credit. So US GDP per capita — which is even higher than Germany — is inflated by the debt needed to sustain the high standard of living of US consumers whose productive output lags behind those of the Germans. The only thing keeping US consumers from losing their high standard of living is the Petrodollar System which maintains the international reserve status of the USD. The Petrodollar System in turn is backed by the US military which seeks to control the world’s oil supplies and its sea lanes. That’s why Obama launched his “Pivot to Asia” in order to strangle China’s maritime trade with the Persian Gulf which had supplied 80% of its oil imports via the Indian Ocean, through the Straits of Malacca, and across the South China Sea. That’s also why the USA blew up the Nordstream pipelines because the EU-Russian energy trade had undermined the Petrodollar System which is the lifeblood of its Empire.
In view of the above, comparing the USA with other countries is a futile exercise.
Where in my comment did I write anything about your “coping”? You seem to be the one with reading comprehension issues. What a weirdo you are. I addressed one thing in my comment to you. Missiles on the Type 052.
Seems YOU are the one with a chip in the shoulder. Or you are just a mad man. Or just plain stupid. How do you know what I know about VLS? Of course they are bigger which is why China doesn’t need as many. It’s the same reason the Type 055 doesn’t need as many cells as US “cruisers”. You write a lot but make a lot of assumptions. Never mind. Now I see why Mulga types to you the way he does. Carry on.
At least other commenters who make opinionated comments not based on reality don’t hide as anonymous (then again you might be one one them trying to hide yourself).
I guess you don’t know what you are reading. As to Oversease Chinese. Look at the numbers. I realize you all are not good at match. There are 1.4 billion Chinese and 10 million Chinese citizens live overseas (the other 60 million in the diaspora left before the PRC were formed so do not count). When you do the simple calculation you see the U.S. has a higher percentage of citizens living overseas. So by your faulty logic that should mean the U.S. is harder to save money than China.
You really don’t make any kind of sense. You openly state Chinese are frugal and that’s why they can send remittances. But yet you completely fail to realize that mortgage and car loan percentages are far lower in China than in the west. It is precisely because Chinese in China save more money. As a matter of fact it’s only very recently laws were eased in terms of how much you had to put down in China to buy real estate. You really don’t make sense but think you are so smart.
As to Taiwan. Again someone who has no clue of what they are talking about. Prior to Covid up to 2 million Taiwanese had been living on the Mainland fairly recently. They especially loved Shanghai. Why? Stagnant wages and rising cost of living. Ten percent of the workforce going across the Strait was not going to be good. Hence the campaign to ratchet up tension. I’ve been to quite a number of large western cities. Why don’t you – take yourself and buy some plane tickets. Don’t even go to Shanghai. Go to Xiamen and Fuzhou and then hop a boat across to Taiwan and visit Taipei. I want you to come back on here and post pictures of the built environment and then tell us with a straight face Taiwan is still ahead of Fujian
Yeah it’s like a cognitive dissonance. He states cost of living is lower and salaries being lower. But he can’t understand that a high salary and high cost of living doesn’t necessarily mean you can save more. Anyone in London or NYC or Toronto can tell you that unless they are the upper echelon or have multiple jobs they struggle to save money because cost of living is so high. Then I realized that person had no clue what they are talking about when they claimed Chinese would go buy things like people in the west. Then says Chinese are frugal. He makes zero sense whatsoever and has absolutely no clue. The fool doesn’t realize for the last decade the Chinese government has been TRYING to get Chinese people to save LESS and spend MORE because Chinese people don’t have a spending mentality but a saving one. It has only worked a little bit. That person is nuts. Chinese don’t live by credit cards
Yes, you are totally right.
I just had a thought last night about this guy. I give my hunch why he is so emotionally charged. This guy lives in Europe, but has always been fed Western propaganda that China is a dirt poor and half starved. The idea of being in Europe and being less affluent than the USA, is ok in his mind because he can always think to himself he is relatively well off/superior compared the “Rest of the World”.
So when articles like these appear, it shocks his belief system. Because if China can rise up and become affluent, then so can the “Rest of the World”….then he will no longer a affluent/superior position.
So he is searching desperately for “proof” that China is still poor. That way he can feel better about his own situation.
Thanks, this is a fantastic point. I must remember it.
Another great point! He would be astounded if he saw videos of Chinese people a few years back, walking into a car dealership, taking out a bunch of paper money to buy a car. No loans or credit cards. They just saved up the full sum before buying the car.
Ah, I found some of them videos.
These videos are only news-worthy because the buyers took out huge amounts small value notes and coins. The majority of such cash only buyers use much larger value notes, or electronic payment methods and would not make the news.
Why isn’t the interview a recording of the interview instead of Ron Unz reading a transcript of the interview? Bizarre.
Columbus didn’t enslave anyone. The Spanish government conquered the colonies. Another anti White racist woke faggot progressive Jew spouts standard Jew anti White racism.
I didn’t write that Snow lied. I wrote that he was extremely biased in favor of Mao and Mao’s conquest of China. Which is completely true. Snow was a communist who wrote several books praising Mao and the communists that conquered China.
The ‘standard of living’ in the USA is hardly uniform. Inequality, poverty, working poor, and homelessness are all the highest in the OECD. AND worsening.
Talk of propaganda he noted so many Chinese are in the west working and earning money. But I had to post a graph showing him that China has a lower percentage of its citizens living overseas (not counting pre 1949 diaspora like our people – lol) than most of Europe and even slightly less than the U.S. They can’t understand the facts of those numbers. 1 out of every 6 people on the planet is Chinese. “A lot” living abroad doesn’t mean much
As to cars – yeah in the west – car companies make a lot of their money through financing of the cars. (The dealers make money by servicing). It’s a game. A parasitic one. Same reason education is expensive. People use loans. But “everything is China’s fault”.
Yup. Currency was invented by Chinese. But some of these guys will claim it was Europe.
But yeah BMW market share dropping now.
Truth be told though – a lot of German designers and engineers were hired by Chinese makes. So why pay more for a BMW when you can get a No ET7.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44nG-NLB3Sk&pp=ygUTTmlvIGV0IDcgY29tcGFyaXNvbg%3D%3D
But yeah it’s not just EV’s. Even in gas cars now legacy carmakers are competing with Mercedes Maybach and even Rolls (of course for a discount) .. This not Mao’s old car.
The Taino would disagree.
https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/170.html
so would the Arawaks.
https://nativephilanthropy.candid.org/events/columbus-enslaves-the-arawak-and-commits-genocide/
Believe it or not, the USA GDP per capita is at $70K which is twice that of the EU at $35K. But four out of the top five sectors comprising some 53.7% of the USA GDP are in “services”, as follows:
GDP share by industry U.S. 2023 | Statista
https://www.statista.com/statistics/248004/percentage-added-to-the-us-gdp-by-industry/
Those “services” are paid for by US citizens to other US citizens using the USD printed out of thin air by the Fed and inflated by the international reserve status of the USD. Without the Petrodollar System, the USD would cease to the international reserve currency. That would in turn deflate the USA GDP because foreigners are subsidizing the inflated USD used to pay for those “services” in the USA.
Like everything else in the world. Even when something was clearly invented in the West, the Chinaman will find some pretext to claim that this too was invented by a protean member of his race.
May I suggest an additional strategy Wang? If the evidence becomes too overwhelming, if the risk of losing face seems too great, then instead of simply appropriating it, just declare the technology primitive. Obviously the Chinaman could invent it if he wanted to, and easily so, but this strategy has the benefit of giving you the appearance of a fair and balanced disposition. True, such balance is not warranted by the facts, after all you are superior. But when you claim everything, these simple white men, in their failure to appreciate your manifest superiority, might perhaps react with incredulity.
The Spanish colonial government enslaved them, not Columbus who didn’t stay in the islands.
Many activists claim that Columbus and his crews didn’t enslave the natives at all. But leapt ashore with guns and swords in an orgy of murderous massacre. And brought glass flasks of deadly germs and threw the flasks at the natives while dancing with joy that the germs would kill all the native people.
The history channel disagrees strongly with you (link): “On [Columnbus’] first day in the New World, he ordered six of the natives to be seized, writing in his journal that he believed they would be good servants. Throughout his years in the New World, Columbus enacted policies of forced labor in which natives were put to work for the sake of profits. Later, Columbus sent thousands of peaceful Taino “Indians” from the island of Hispaniola to Spain to be sold. Many died en route.”
Not only did Christopher Columbus take slaves, he started doing so on his very first day in what would be known as the Americas. We know this because he said so in his journal.
Recognizing that Chinkland has a One China Policy, does not mean that he, or any of the following US Presidents, agreed to abide by it. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
If Edgar Snow didn’t lie, then he was telling the truth. So you are allergic to the truth, as I said. Much as the US is in general; hence Tik Tok will soon be banned in the US for the crime of showing the truth in Gaza.
First time hearing that building (or repairing) a house is a service industry. LOL!!!!
So what about Chinkland, which used to have around 30% of its GDP derived from just the “Building tofu dreg homes” portion of this “service” industry?
Most likely with Chinkland’s real estate collapse, that number is close to 10% right about now. ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!
Spoken like a real Pajeet.
A new president is bound by the obligations that the previous government has taken on behalf the country.
Trust a Pajeet to throw agreements and promises away so callously.
Are you seriously trying to claim that currency didn’t start in China? You really are going that route? In all seriousness – where did you receive your education ?
Well let me be more specific. “Paper currency notes”. (Though most of the oldest coins tend to to be found in India and China and Mesopotamia)
The Spanish exterminated the Taino COMPLETELY, with such savagery that it is scarcely credible. The beginning of the American Holocaust.
But he’s not bound by obligations that a prior president never made… and the only recognition of China’s One China Policy made by a prior president … is that China has one. ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!