Pances/Papess's crown: double vs triple

Given some of the important comments that have been made in a couple of threads - and especially more recently in the thread in the Historical section titled 'History of the High Priestess', I thought it would be interesting to also carefully note whether the Marseille has a Papess with either a double of a triple crown.

Various aspects of the image have already been made in the thread mentioned, and in the much earlier thread on II La Papesse.

It seems to me at this stage that there are few possibilities for the Marseille Papess, and though there are possible historical possibilities for a member of the Visconti family to be depicted on this (and other) cards produced for them, it seems to me to be chasing the wrong avenue when discussing the Marseille.

The personage is more general or allegorical.

Ross Caldwell has already linked to various images allegorically representing the Church - complete with a triple crown, and I have similarly shown an allegorical image of the church (without triple crown) vs the synagogue from a mediaeval cathedral.

In other places, I have rather argued for the image being that of the Virgin Mary, reminiscent of the Annunciation, yet crowned showing her post-assumption coronation.

Others have made reference to Pope Joan.

In each of these, the number of crowns may or may not be as important as whether the crown depicted on a Marseille typically is simple, double or triple.

For myself, I personally favour a double crown.

deux fois trois fois

Knowledge of the Tarot works at many surface levels.
A number is enough to call a particular image to mind,
and they have recognisable nominal designations too.

A very simple outline image will call each card to mind,
with a few apt penstrokes supplying enough to suffice.
Any critical detail we imagine mainly serves our fancies.

Should the right hand of La Papess be just out of sight,
or visible upon the edge of her book? Does her "crown"
consist of a two or three ringed design? Both... neither.

jmd said:

In other places, I have rather argued for the image being that of the Virgin Mary, reminiscent of the Annunciation, yet crowned showing her post-assumption coronation.

Others have made reference to Pope Joan.

Click to expand...

And yet others have made reference to Mary Magdalene.

Thanks for bringing up this important subject, jmd. I have always thought she must have a triple crown. Need to ponder this further. I hope to come back to post my thoughts if I think they are worth sharing.

(No, this post was not spam - I just wanted to point out the Magdalene theory, as I have noticed that it is frequently ignored in the Historical section - and I have also noticed in real life that this theory is ignored more by men than by women (and I find the fact that they ignore it very interesting) although I have met a couple of men who have said when I mentioned my theory "but of course she's the Magdalene", and even look at me as if this was so obvious that they wonder why I even mention it.)

The double/triple crown discussion may or may not help me verify my belief about this.

Diana said:

The double/triple crown discussion may or may not
help me verify my belief about this.

Click to expand...

It depends on whether Mary Magdalene wore a crown or not,
and if you can also link every other card to an actual person,
or not. I respect your belief, but wouldn't respond, of course.

jmd said:

Ross Caldwell has already linked to various images allegorically representing the Church - complete with a triple crown, and I have similarly shown an allegorical image of the church (without triple crown) vs the synagogue from a mediaeval cathedral.

In other places, I have rather argued for the image being that of the Virgin Mary, reminiscent of the Annunciation, yet crowned showing her post-assumption coronation.

Others have made reference to Pope Joan.

In each of these, the number of crowns may or may not be as important as whether the crown depicted on a Marseille typically is simple, double or triple.

For myself, I personally favour a double crown.

Click to expand...

Since this is a discussion of the TdM imagery in particular, this may be off-topic, but I can only add that in the *earliest* depictions of the Papessa, all of the cards from 15th - 16th centuries, both Pope and Popess are shown with triple crowns, with the Rosenwald sheet being an exception, showing both figures with a double crown.
http://geocities.com/anytarot/tiara.html

Unless it is a pronounced difference, and not a limitation of the engraving, I wouldn't think it had any significance. Popes have worn the triple crown (triregno, whose meaning is really unknown, even to Church authorities, but has been interpreted various ways) since about 1315. That is, before there are pictures of them on Tarot cards.

I think it is misguided to see any historical meaning in it, if that is what anyone is trying to do. You'd also have to explain why the Pope in the Charles VI deck only has *one* tiara, hearkening back to a time before 1300.

Ross G Caldwell said:

I think it is misguided to see any historical meaning in it, if that is what anyone is trying to do. You'd also have to explain why the Pope in the Charles VI deck only has *one* tiara, hearkening back to a time before 1300.

Click to expand...

Looking for historical meaning may be misguided, I don't know. Looking for symbolic meaning (all is symbol in the Tarot of Marseilles), is probably not.

Charles VI deck is not a Tarot of Marseilles.

The 3rd crown was added to the tiara by Benoit XII around 1340 to symbolise his moral authority over the kings. (The second was added round 1300 and I can't remember why, and the first I cannot remember at all when it was added.)

Ross: If we're talking purely history, then the whole thread is pointless, because there has never been a Papess in the Catholic Church (apart from that cute legend which even if it is true, would have no place in the Tarot of Marseilles).

But I think it is important to know whether La Papess / Pances wears a triple or a double tiara. Everything is important when it comes to the Tarot of Marseilles.

(Talking of tiaras: The present Pope has always refused to wear one - even on the day of his inauguration.)

I seriously doubt the meaning of the triple tiara is unknown to Catholic authorities. They know that all of their insignia were copied and modified from old pagan traditions. (In the case of the tiara, probably from the Babylonian cult of the Sun God called Shamesh.)

The limitations of the engraving may indeed be simple physical causal explanation for the ambiguity or variety in the various renditions of Marseille decks.

For example, the Dodal (and Dodal-type) seem to favour a dual-crown for the Pances, and the Conver (and Conver-type) a triple one - even if only ambiguously.

Each, however, favours a triple-crown for the Pope.

In my opening post, I omitted indeed the suggestion of the Papess as possibly Mary Magdelene (and the various saints that have also been suggested at various times).

This was more simply as a consequence of reflecting on one aspect of the card image, ie, the crown, and its various possibilities as indicator of possible source. Allegorical church, Virgin Mary, and Pope Joan each being at times represented as crowned in vast numbers of images.

If one reflects also on the consequences of a double of triple crown, the triple (apart from its referred meaning) is usually depicted as closed. In other words, it is usually depicted as three crowns of diminishing size 'slipped' upon what is reminiscent of the Crown of Upper Egypt.

In contrast, the double crown is at times (but not always) depicted as open at the top, with seemingly 'light' or other descending from above (somewhat exaggerated in the Hadar rendition).

In a Marseille depiction, these two possibilities exist if one considers the variety of decks - yet the question can legitimately be asked, from a symbolic perspective, as to which (if either) may best reflect the iconography.

In other words, if each of us were to design a deck, a decision as to what to actually depict would have to be made. But which, and possibly, why?

jmd said:

In other places, I have rather argued for the image being that of the Virgin Mary, reminiscent of the Annunciation, yet crowned showing her post-assumption coronation.

Click to expand...

This then would mean that the book is the 'book of prophets' in which Mary was said to be reading prophesies of which she herself was to be the fulfillment.

If there is a correspondence in this card to Mary, and in the World card to Eve, this would present a very interesting little problem, suggesting the triumph of Eve over Mary, a subversion of the anti-jewish polemics of orthodox didactic imagery.

Both cards may also reference the concept of 'prophesy', through the book of prophets with 'mary', and through the four beasts of the world [which are in books of prophesy of Ezekiel and St. John.

Comparing each card the symbolism of clothing and nudity may also be relevant as symbolising 'concealment' and 'revelation'.

Kwaw

Diana said:

(No, this post was not spam - I just wanted to point out the Magdalene theory, as I have noticed that it is frequently ignored in the Historical section - and I have also noticed in real life that this theory is ignored more by men than by women (and I find the fact that they ignore it very interesting) although I have met a couple of men who have said when I mentioned my theory "but of course she's the Magdalene", and even look at me as if this was so obvious that they wonder why I even mention it.)

Click to expand...

I for one don't ignore the Magdalene theory, but wanted to
comment that it's difficult to prove when something's being
ignored unless someone actually confirms they're ignoring it.

Diana said:

Looking for historical meaning may be misguided, I don't know. Looking for symbolic meaning (all is symbol in the Tarot of Marseilles), is probably not. [ . . . ] I seriously doubt the meaning of the triple tiara is unknown to Catholic authorities. They know that all of their insignia were copied and modified from old pagan traditions. (In the case of the tiara, probably from the Babylonian cult of the Sun God called Shamesh.)

Click to expand...

Thank you for this very straightforward and logical approach
to a complex and often difficult subject requiring much study.
Your research and vivid comprehension is highly enlightening.

jmd said:

In a Marseille depiction, these two possibilities exist if one considers the variety of decks - yet the question can legitimately be asked, from a symbolic perspective, as to which (if either) may best reflect the iconography.

In other words, if each of us were to design a deck, a decision as to what to actually depict would have to be made. But which, and possibly, why?

Click to expand...

From a symbolic and philosophical perspective (setting aside historical considerations for a moment), I would choose the open double crown. It's a hard call, because I like the number three - active and creative. However, the open double crown is related numerically to the Pances/Papesse, and, because of its openness, reflects the permeability that the Papesse needs in order to be the "knower, keeper, gestator" of the Tarot.